hey everyone
what do you consider of the best salinity for a reef?
edwin
what do you consider of the best salinity for a reef?
edwin
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best Salinity
- Thread starter RevClyburn
- Start date
C
concept3
Guest
35% or within the range of 1.025 to 1.026 is what seems best for me. Most LFS keep them around 1.022-1.025 to save on salt and keep parasites low on the fish, so acclimate accordingly if purchasing anything through an LFS
LFS don't keep the salinity/sg lower to reduce parasites as it would need to be much lower to have any affect at all. It's simply to save on salt. I've always hated this practise myself. Fish have evolved to live at near 35% salinity not at 30 or 31% so that is what they should be kept at to reduce stress.
At the store I work at I changed this on the fish only systems so it's no longer on the lower side but at a precise 35% just like the reef tanks. Too many people don't acclimate correctly IMHO so having the salinity about the same in my opinion lessens one hurdle for the consumer.
Carlo
At the store I work at I changed this on the fish only systems so it's no longer on the lower side but at a precise 35% just like the reef tanks. Too many people don't acclimate correctly IMHO so having the salinity about the same in my opinion lessens one hurdle for the consumer.
Carlo
Carlo said:
There are indeed LFS owners who run lower salinity because they believe that it reduces parasites. And I know of some who have experienced improvements because of it. I run my own FOWLR that way.
I do agree that many customers do not acclimate correctly, but many do not run their tanks at 1.026 either. Running a tank at 1.025-1.026 would match the majority of customers tanks, but not all.
I think an educated consumer should ask and I think an LFS should post what the actual salinity's are.
I run my reefs at 1.025-1.026.
C
concept3
Guest
Carlo said:
Carlo, I completely agree in the lower salinity to cut costs at the LFS as true. In the journals that I have studied in school and in practice at the 2 stores that I have worked in the past however, the lowering of the salinity has helped in reducing parasites in FO systems. It has something to do with the Osmoregulation of ions that fish need to do in higher salinities. Their systems do not need to balance the ions in lower SG's as much (closer to the fishes' internal osmotic balance), thereby reducing their stress levels hence increasing their immune systems in fighting off parasites. I've always balked at FO systems at the LFS who keep them at between 1.019 and 1.021, but I've seen this as a norm in the business. When I used to pick fish at the wholesaler, they would even keep some of their systems way under the norm during post shipment to reduce stress; I always thought this was weird myself, but the shippers mentioned to me they lose less fish this way-
I used to run my tank at 1.026 but with evaporation I was worried that it would go up ... even though I have an auto top off. So now I run my tank at 1.025.
Just wanted to say that A.O. keeps their FO system at 1.019 and I acclimate for over 2 hours on everything I get from them. I have never lost a fish from A.O. (unless it was my fault....2 jumpers/no top).
Just wanted to say that A.O. keeps their FO system at 1.019 and I acclimate for over 2 hours on everything I get from them. I have never lost a fish from A.O. (unless it was my fault....2 jumpers/no top).
I'd agree and disagree with that Merv. I can certainly see how this can apply to some fish stores. If you buy from wholesalers who use lower salinity then you have to acclimate them for a much longer period and not just temp/pH match and drop in (which many lfs do). In such situations they are better off keeping their salinity at near wholesaler salinity levels so the fish don't get stressed out on entry to their lfs systems. However, on the flip side if you setup things properly and acclimate the fish slowly like you would at home (in the store) then you won't stress out the fish and they will be back in their normal salinity environment. I've all but stopped buying fish from wholesalers and go straight through trans-shippers where the fish come to us in ocean water (roughly 35%) They are air-shipped to LA where each bag is re-oxegenated and then put on a plain where we pick it up a few hours later at Phily or Newark airport. Using this method the fish stay at 35% salinity and the shipping times are as short as possible.
My objective is to cut out the middleman on transport. Not because of price (sometimes more expensive) but because of decease. Wholesaler systems typically contribute huge amounts of illness and especially parasites to the whole shipping chain of events. By cutting that stage out I find the fish to be much healthier overall.
I do agree there is a place for using slightly lower salinity levels especially for shipping by slower methods as it can reduce stress on the fish and ease their metabolic rates, but I don't think running the FO system at the LFS is one of those places as it causes to much grief for the consumer and their acclimation procedures (or lack of).
In my mind I think the LFS should handle all this behind the scenes so to speak but make the purchase and acclimation the easiest possible for the consumer who may or may not acclimate properly. If it's a reef, chances are it's going to go into a system near or at 35%. If it's a FO system then it might be ran with lower salinity, but it's much easier/safer to drop a fishes salinity then to raise it (acclimation wise) so keeping the LFS salinity at 35% for these fish is still a plus to my way of thinking.
I personally think a lot of LFS falter on the concept behind lower salinities from a parasite standpoint. Slightly lower salinities don't do squat for parasites long-term. There are no scientific studies that I know of that show otherwise. You either need to be at hypo levels or don't bother to get rid of parasites. Parasites themselves adjust to lower salinity levels until you get down into the hypo levels which no LFS would sell fish from. A few salinity points lower just doesn't help (parasite wise). However, taking a fish at 35% and lowering the salinity as fast as possible does help the fish get rid of some parasites and relieves some stress but it's a temp measure. Once these fish are in this salinity for a few days the parasites (if there) will come right back with a vengeance. Worse yet the fish could be sold to the consumer where this happens in their system. The low salinity on new imports is more of a "mask" then a fix/cure from a parasite standpoint although it does help with survivability as explained below if you read between the lines what is going on.
To expand on the the Osmoregulation for those that don't know what this is:
Marine fish (teleosts) have body fluids that are about 1/3 that of sea water (salinity) and their body fluids are hypoosmotic to their environment. As a result they will tend to lose water by osmosis to the environment through their skin but mostly through their gills. Consequently, they have developed mechanisms and behaviour to compensate for this water loss. Firstly, the kidneys of marine fish are modified in such a way that very little water is extracted from the blood, some species even lack certain kidney structures and can't eliminate water. This results in a reduction in the loss of water by the production of urine. However, water is still being lost by the gills and this cannot be stopped, so the only method left is to somehow replace the water as quickly as it is lost. Marine fish accomplish this by actually drinking water, the most reliable drinking rates reported in the literature range from 3-10 ml/(kg hr) (Gordon, 1977). However, drinking water by itself cannot solve the problem, a complex series of events must first occur in the digestive tract. These events are not yet well understood but it is known that most of the water is absorbed as are the monovalent ions Na+ and Cl- (they are, after all, drinking salt water!), while the divalent ions (such as magnesium and sulfates) are excreted by the
kidneys (Gordon, 1977). Sodium (Na+) and chloride (Cl-) also move by diffusion into the body through the gills. Therefore, Na+ and Cl- ions will accumulate in the body of the fish and must be eliminated.
Since marine fish must constantly expel various solutes, such as sodium and chloride ions, against an osmotic gradient, a great deal of energy is required. Therefore, anything that you can do to lower the osmotic gradient will benefit the fish in terms of energy expenditure. The simplest way of doing this is to lower the salinity of the water as much as possible, particularly for a fish in distress (i.e. diseased). This alone can sometimes be enough to ease their burden. Of course any such change must be extremely gradual and
must not get to the point where the fish is in obvious stress.
(above taken from http://www2.hawaii.edu/~delbeek/delb11.html so I didn't have to type it or think about it)
So it's easy to see how the lower salinity can help in shipping to reduce stress. We all know that stress can bring out things like ICH (if the parasite is present) so the common wisdom is that keeping the LFS salinity down reduces ICH/parasites but it really doesn't. It just masks the problem as the fish will either have it or not. It just may not show up for a while until something triggers stress in the fish. From the standpoint of most LFS if the fish "look healthy" then they "are" but again looks can be deceiving. Once this fish is brought back up to normal salinity levels and gets a little stressed out in it's new home in your tank, bam, signs of ICH that were previously masked. <-- worst case thing that happens.
Now with all that said, keep in mind this is only my opinion on the matter. It doesn't make it right or wrong, just my opinion and how I choose to handle the situation. This is not meant to fault how other LFS run their systems. Each store has their own way of handling/treating things that work for them. My approach is simple geared toward the consumer and puts the burden on the store itself work wise.
Carlo
My objective is to cut out the middleman on transport. Not because of price (sometimes more expensive) but because of decease. Wholesaler systems typically contribute huge amounts of illness and especially parasites to the whole shipping chain of events. By cutting that stage out I find the fish to be much healthier overall.
I do agree there is a place for using slightly lower salinity levels especially for shipping by slower methods as it can reduce stress on the fish and ease their metabolic rates, but I don't think running the FO system at the LFS is one of those places as it causes to much grief for the consumer and their acclimation procedures (or lack of).
In my mind I think the LFS should handle all this behind the scenes so to speak but make the purchase and acclimation the easiest possible for the consumer who may or may not acclimate properly. If it's a reef, chances are it's going to go into a system near or at 35%. If it's a FO system then it might be ran with lower salinity, but it's much easier/safer to drop a fishes salinity then to raise it (acclimation wise) so keeping the LFS salinity at 35% for these fish is still a plus to my way of thinking.
I personally think a lot of LFS falter on the concept behind lower salinities from a parasite standpoint. Slightly lower salinities don't do squat for parasites long-term. There are no scientific studies that I know of that show otherwise. You either need to be at hypo levels or don't bother to get rid of parasites. Parasites themselves adjust to lower salinity levels until you get down into the hypo levels which no LFS would sell fish from. A few salinity points lower just doesn't help (parasite wise). However, taking a fish at 35% and lowering the salinity as fast as possible does help the fish get rid of some parasites and relieves some stress but it's a temp measure. Once these fish are in this salinity for a few days the parasites (if there) will come right back with a vengeance. Worse yet the fish could be sold to the consumer where this happens in their system. The low salinity on new imports is more of a "mask" then a fix/cure from a parasite standpoint although it does help with survivability as explained below if you read between the lines what is going on.
To expand on the the Osmoregulation for those that don't know what this is:
Marine fish (teleosts) have body fluids that are about 1/3 that of sea water (salinity) and their body fluids are hypoosmotic to their environment. As a result they will tend to lose water by osmosis to the environment through their skin but mostly through their gills. Consequently, they have developed mechanisms and behaviour to compensate for this water loss. Firstly, the kidneys of marine fish are modified in such a way that very little water is extracted from the blood, some species even lack certain kidney structures and can't eliminate water. This results in a reduction in the loss of water by the production of urine. However, water is still being lost by the gills and this cannot be stopped, so the only method left is to somehow replace the water as quickly as it is lost. Marine fish accomplish this by actually drinking water, the most reliable drinking rates reported in the literature range from 3-10 ml/(kg hr) (Gordon, 1977). However, drinking water by itself cannot solve the problem, a complex series of events must first occur in the digestive tract. These events are not yet well understood but it is known that most of the water is absorbed as are the monovalent ions Na+ and Cl- (they are, after all, drinking salt water!), while the divalent ions (such as magnesium and sulfates) are excreted by the
kidneys (Gordon, 1977). Sodium (Na+) and chloride (Cl-) also move by diffusion into the body through the gills. Therefore, Na+ and Cl- ions will accumulate in the body of the fish and must be eliminated.
Since marine fish must constantly expel various solutes, such as sodium and chloride ions, against an osmotic gradient, a great deal of energy is required. Therefore, anything that you can do to lower the osmotic gradient will benefit the fish in terms of energy expenditure. The simplest way of doing this is to lower the salinity of the water as much as possible, particularly for a fish in distress (i.e. diseased). This alone can sometimes be enough to ease their burden. Of course any such change must be extremely gradual and
must not get to the point where the fish is in obvious stress.
(above taken from http://www2.hawaii.edu/~delbeek/delb11.html so I didn't have to type it or think about it)
So it's easy to see how the lower salinity can help in shipping to reduce stress. We all know that stress can bring out things like ICH (if the parasite is present) so the common wisdom is that keeping the LFS salinity down reduces ICH/parasites but it really doesn't. It just masks the problem as the fish will either have it or not. It just may not show up for a while until something triggers stress in the fish. From the standpoint of most LFS if the fish "look healthy" then they "are" but again looks can be deceiving. Once this fish is brought back up to normal salinity levels and gets a little stressed out in it's new home in your tank, bam, signs of ICH that were previously masked. <-- worst case thing that happens.
Now with all that said, keep in mind this is only my opinion on the matter. It doesn't make it right or wrong, just my opinion and how I choose to handle the situation. This is not meant to fault how other LFS run their systems. Each store has their own way of handling/treating things that work for them. My approach is simple geared toward the consumer and puts the burden on the store itself work wise.
Carlo
GEEZ
Merv and Carlos, you guys sound like Oceanography/Biology majors, LOL. Great info nonetheless. I have a hydrometer, and it's sweet spot is 1.021, I think, I thought was the best level to keep a tank. Now I see I need to go up quite a bit. Guess I've been running things a little low for years. Will boost things up to around 1.025-26. By the way, when testing NSW from Belmar, it comes in at about 1.019 to 1.021, consistenly. Why do we increase things when the salinity from NSW is lower, outside of parasites?
edwin
Merv and Carlos, you guys sound like Oceanography/Biology majors, LOL. Great info nonetheless. I have a hydrometer, and it's sweet spot is 1.021, I think, I thought was the best level to keep a tank. Now I see I need to go up quite a bit. Guess I've been running things a little low for years. Will boost things up to around 1.025-26. By the way, when testing NSW from Belmar, it comes in at about 1.019 to 1.021, consistenly. Why do we increase things when the salinity from NSW is lower, outside of parasites?
edwin
RevClyburn said:
Saltwater in the ocean should be at 1.026 (at least that's what i've read).
Also when you raise your SG make sure you do it over an extended period of time ... not all at once.
I used to have a parisite issues with my fish only system until I lowered it down to 1.019 and now everything is GREAT. Never a sign of any issues going on about 6 months or so. I also have some mushrooms and ricordia in there and they just keep growing.
My reef tank I keep 1.025 and it does great also. I am starting to think that it really does not matter as long as the fish are acclimated to it properly.
My reef tank I keep 1.025 and it does great also. I am starting to think that it really does not matter as long as the fish are acclimated to it properly.
C
concept3
Guest
RevClyburn said:
rev- are you using a refractometer? the reefs are slightly warmer and more saline than the waters off our coast, as i recall-
here's a map actually, taken from this site:
http://www.sciencebuddies.org/mentoring/project_ideas/OceanSci_p002.shtml
Rev, I have a degree in Marine Biology with a concentration in Marine Resource Management/Aquaculture, but it's been a while
Hi All
My reef salinity is kept at 1.025 to 1.026 and the animals (SPS, LPS, Softies) seem to be happy and growing.
As for fish only tanks, I suggest 1.019 and if possible, the use of a UV Sterilizer especially if: 1)it's a large system with many different species of fish; or 2) it's a tank with large fish that have big appetites, ie. triggers, groupers etc.
Dom
My reef salinity is kept at 1.025 to 1.026 and the animals (SPS, LPS, Softies) seem to be happy and growing.
As for fish only tanks, I suggest 1.019 and if possible, the use of a UV Sterilizer especially if: 1)it's a large system with many different species of fish; or 2) it's a tank with large fish that have big appetites, ie. triggers, groupers etc.
Dom
I'd strongly caution keeping fish at lower then normal salinity levels long term. This is one of those things that aren't well understood by the average hobbyist.
Low salinity for short durations is usually fine. Hyposalinity 16 ppt (1.009 sg) at 80F will generally kill off all parasite on a fish. 21 days is usually used "just in case". Fish normally adjust to lower salinity levels much easier then adjusting back to higher levels. When doing hypo the levels can usually be dropped from 35% to 16% in a period of a couple days but bringing it back up takes far more time. Usually at a pace of about 1 or 2 points a day at the most.
One of the "claimed" benefits of lower salinity is the conservation of energy for the fish. Marine fish constantly drink saltwater and excrete the salt to maintain the proper osmotic balance. Lowering the salinity of the surrounding environment is "claimed" to eases this energy demand on the sick fish, thereby allowing them to expend more energy towards fighting the infection. To the best of my knowledge it's a hypothosis and never studied or documented. So while this might be a good idea short term it has a different affect long term (scientifically studied). Keeping fish in lower then normal salinity causes the fish to have problems flushing their kidneys properly. After long-term exposure to lower then normal salinity's it has a tendency to cause kidney problems which sometime result in kidney failure/death. Ron Shimek did a good study on this a while back that's never been challenged.
So maybe it's only a matter of opinion on my part but marine fish belong in 35% (give or take a point or two) salinity for their own health. Parasites and other deceases should be dealt with properly using known methods that cure the fish and then returned to their normal living conditions.
It's starting to sound like I'm "preaching" which I don't want it to come across as because everyone is entitled to run their tanks the way they see fit. I just want to make sure everyone has enough info to make up their own mind or to ask further questions or do some research if they aren't sure what to do. Steven Pro has a decent article on ich and treatment options and he too frowns on long term lower then normal salinity practices.
Carlo
Low salinity for short durations is usually fine. Hyposalinity 16 ppt (1.009 sg) at 80F will generally kill off all parasite on a fish. 21 days is usually used "just in case". Fish normally adjust to lower salinity levels much easier then adjusting back to higher levels. When doing hypo the levels can usually be dropped from 35% to 16% in a period of a couple days but bringing it back up takes far more time. Usually at a pace of about 1 or 2 points a day at the most.
One of the "claimed" benefits of lower salinity is the conservation of energy for the fish. Marine fish constantly drink saltwater and excrete the salt to maintain the proper osmotic balance. Lowering the salinity of the surrounding environment is "claimed" to eases this energy demand on the sick fish, thereby allowing them to expend more energy towards fighting the infection. To the best of my knowledge it's a hypothosis and never studied or documented. So while this might be a good idea short term it has a different affect long term (scientifically studied). Keeping fish in lower then normal salinity causes the fish to have problems flushing their kidneys properly. After long-term exposure to lower then normal salinity's it has a tendency to cause kidney problems which sometime result in kidney failure/death. Ron Shimek did a good study on this a while back that's never been challenged.
So maybe it's only a matter of opinion on my part but marine fish belong in 35% (give or take a point or two) salinity for their own health. Parasites and other deceases should be dealt with properly using known methods that cure the fish and then returned to their normal living conditions.
It's starting to sound like I'm "preaching" which I don't want it to come across as because everyone is entitled to run their tanks the way they see fit. I just want to make sure everyone has enough info to make up their own mind or to ask further questions or do some research if they aren't sure what to do. Steven Pro has a decent article on ich and treatment options and he too frowns on long term lower then normal salinity practices.
Carlo
C
concept3
Guest
Agreed. Fish really should be at optimal specific gravities indigenous to their original habitats. Species that are anadromous (salmon) or catadromous (eels) can withstand the changes in osmotic pressures since their systems can adapt to differences in salinity efficiently. Most reef inhabitants however, are accustomed to long term stability and hence need to be kept in environments this way. Although reef fish can be kept in lower salinity, I have personally kept my former tanks that are FO between 1.022-1.025 only because I could keep softies with them (yes, I did have a softie tank...shhh) As a preventative measure, I have always kept cleaner shrimp for most of my fish, and anemones with clowns. I have found that clowns that host are less susceptible to ich and other parasites for some reason.
So, to summarize, yes, a FOWLR tank can be kept in a lower than "normal" SG, while reefs really should be kept in SG's above 1.024 and below 1.027 (red sea) to mimic their true habitats. It is more important to keep a reef tank this way since most corals are immobile while fish can migrate from one zone to another, whether intertidal to crests to reef troughs- The most important thing is STABILITY. Increase it slowly, cautiously, and maintain it way for the best results.
-MR
So, to summarize, yes, a FOWLR tank can be kept in a lower than "normal" SG, while reefs really should be kept in SG's above 1.024 and below 1.027 (red sea) to mimic their true habitats. It is more important to keep a reef tank this way since most corals are immobile while fish can migrate from one zone to another, whether intertidal to crests to reef troughs- The most important thing is STABILITY. Increase it slowly, cautiously, and maintain it way for the best results.
-MR
Did you guyd ever think of making a stiky with this info. It would mean a lot to newbies and enhance things with the club, IMO.
rev
rev
RevClyburn said:
Coastal waters are gong to be less salty because of the rivers bringing fresh water. Merv, great map. Pitty that the main premse in the latest trilogy from Stanley Kim Robinson (which I liked) conflicts with it :-[