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first intro post and an issue

hello everyone im new to your forum and appreciate all the info i have been looking through... i have been in the fish hobby for about a year now. a year ago i set up a semi aggressive tropical tank in my office and learned a lot about fish from the. yes the hard way but learned. the setup a nice african cichlid tank and have not had any issues on that at all. then in feb of this year the wife gave me the green light on a salt tank.

the tank is a 56g column rr tank plumbed with a wet dry filter, current usa fission skimmer, aqueon power heads, heater, i have 40-50 pounds of sand and some crushed coral substrate and like 50 lbs of live rock. i feed with mysis and brine shrimp, occasionally flake food. water was always salinity 1.026 alk 11-13 calcium 400-450 ph 8.0 nitrite and ammonia 0 nitrates-were 20 now 5-10 (with algae growing) phosphates-.5 my stock list was 5 chromis, 2 firefish, 1 helfrich fire fish, 2 clowns, 6 line wrasse, tail spot blenny, engineer goby, small powder blue tang(for 3 weeks) i struggled to keep zoas but the rest of my corals look great corals were orange palys, green torch purple indo torch, purple hammer green tip hammer, neon green cloves, tri color cloves, regular cloves, gsp, birds nest, a few small frags of misc zoas. my lighting started with a 6 bulb t5 the converted to a diy led 28 3 watt steves led kit 14 royal blue 14 10k white

well about a week after the p.b tang was in the tank he got ich, within a few days the spots were almost all gone(didnt do anything just wait and see) the like a week to the day from first spot he was dead. along with him was the helfrich fire fish. i immediately test my water everything was as above. look for ich on other fish nothing ok well maybe that was it. the next day tail spot blenny was dead, then 2 days later the goby has fuzz on him and swimming at the top of the tank(was fine the day before) and tail spot was dead. again check parameters and all was fine. immediately start treating the tank with kardon reef safe ich treatment. the other fish were clearly stressed but upon treatment all went back to normal during treatment all my bubble type corals looks AWESOME fully extended puffed up look amazing. i didn't run my skimmer during the treatment from directions on medication. i figured since i lost almost all of my fish and everything settled back down and before i add more fish i should take this time to convert my wet dry to to a fuge. i removed the bio balls , to most of the display sand and put in section where bioballs were to make a dsb about 7"high the filled the rest with live rock rubble, i tried an under water scrubber didn't grow ANYTHING. im trying a new type algae scrubber now, and put chateo in the same section then the last section i have my skimmer and return pump. everything has been fine for the past few weeks. checking parameters and everything seemed in check no ammonia or nitrite spike from the "reconstruction" i did change my substrate to black indo which looks like black and white mixed. this was all from 4th of july to 2 weeks ago. the last change i did was add more leds to my fixture making it from 28 to 49 per steves led so i could try more demanding corals and clams.

for 2 weeks everything was fine now my torches, hammers, and frogspawn all retracted. i lost a few new zoa frags (no shock to me). thursday i lost a green hammer today i lost my purple torch. my purple hammer is almost fully retracted maybe 1/2 inch of heads sticking out. my green torch is fully extended and looks great my frogspawn like somewhat retracted but like 1" out. on friday i purchased coral smoothie thinking the corals weren't getting enough food. didn't help well didn't immediately help, i purchased iodine test kit and magnesium test kit since i never tested for them and they were mag-1600 and iodine was slightly higher than 6 . i did starting yesterday add liquid calcium to get my calcium levels up they are about 400 now trying to get it up to 450.

i do have some hair algae growing in the tank. not crazy but definitely growing. i dunno what i should do if i should just let whatever going on run its course of try to combat it, but i dont know what im combating. any ideas thanks.
 
Welcome to the club!!! Sorry about your issues I'll let the experts handle them...
what test kits are you using(brand names) are you running any carbon/GFO/phosban?
 

mnat

Officer Emeritus
Staff member
Moderator
Lets work issue through issue:

Ich: Powder blues are notorious for getting ich and they really should be in a larger tank. In a tank that small with some other aggressive fish (6 line) it could have stressed the other fish or visa versa. Also I love firefish but getting a pair of them is a crap shoot as there is no way to sex them and if they are the same sex they can turn on each other, especially when you have a third one (the helfrichi). You still have ich in your system at this point, but if the other fish can fight through it you should be ok. I would not add any other fish for the time being.

Corals: I am surprised you did not get the nitrate spike when you switched things around but your hypothesis about having a reduced bioload might hold true. What test kits are you using and have you checked the expiration date? (standard questions). Reading over this is sounds like you went from T5s right to DIY LEDS, are there any dimmers on the LEDs? What sort of optics are on there? What watts and type LEDs are they? Did you do any light acclimation for the corals when you switched?

LPS don't need a ton of light and if you shocked them to quick with the lights, that may have caused their deaths if your params are all in check.
 

Sunny

NJRC Member
Article Contributor
Welcome to NJRC. Sorry to hear about your issues.

You mentioned that you saw a few spots on PB and they went away. Then a week later it died. Did you see any spots on any other fish that died? Were the spots like grain of salt or different?
Did you ever see the fish trying to dart from one corner to another? Did you see them twitch? Sorry for so many questions, but if your fish just died without showing any symptoms of ICH, you maybe dealing with a different issue. You may have a case of flukes. Your answers will confirm this though.

I agree with Mike on corals. However, I do believe that a ALK of 11 - 13 is kind of high. What kind of test kits are you using to test your parameters?

Sunny
 
Lets work issue through issue:

Ich: Powder blues are notorious for getting ich and they really should be in a larger tank. In a tank that small with some other aggressive fish (6 line) it could have stressed the other fish or visa versa. Also I love firefish but getting a pair of them is a crap shoot as there is no way to sex them and if they are the same sex they can turn on each other, especially when you have a third one (the helfrichi). You still have ich in your system at this point, but if the other fish can fight through it you should be ok. I would not add any other fish for the time being.------im pretty sure the p.b. tang was my cause for all the fish issues....the firefish have never ever had any agression as far as ive seen. even when i added the helfrich. the fish were rubbing on stuff and darting around but all that stopped after i started treating for ich. and the only fish i saw that had spots was the powder blue

Corals: I am surprised you did not get the nitrate spike when you switched things around but your hypothesis about having a reduced bioload might hold true. What test kits are you using and have you checked the expiration date? api for salt water and reef red sea for mag and iodine(standard questions). Reading over this is sounds like you went from T5s right to DIY LEDS, are there any dimmers on the LEDs?you are correct and yes they have dimmers What sort of optics are on there? no optics and its sitting on the glass canopy What watts and type LEDs are they? they are stevesled.com phillips luseon es he says they are better then cree Did you do any light acclimation for the corals when you switched? the first set no as it didnt seem very bright at all, and thought i under sized it when i add more to the kit i did dim it down but not for long this could be an issue

LPS don't need a ton of light and if you shocked them to quick with the lights, that may have caused their deaths if your params are all in check.
see reply in red above thank you all for your help and keep the ideas coming
 
Welcome to NJRC. Sorry to hear about your issues.

You mentioned that you saw a few spots on PB and they went away. Then a week later it died. Did you see any spots on any other fish that died? Were the spots like grain of salt or different?
Did you ever see the fish trying to dart from one corner to another? Did you see them twitch? Sorry for so many questions, but if your fish just died without showing any symptoms of ICH, you maybe dealing with a different issue. You may have a case of flukes. Your answers will confirm this though.

I agree with Mike on corals. However, I do believe that a ALK of 11 - 13 is kind of high. What kind of test kits are you using to test your parameters?

Sunny

i do apologize but just so were on the same page that is my dkh kinda rushing in my first post at first i had and issue with it being to low so i use a buffer now
 
George,
I'm in the same boat as you, almost to a T. I added more LEDs to my kit as well. Steve's LEDs. I think I may have amped them up too fast, as things were looking really good for about two weeks. I hit roughly 45% on my controller and next day bam! my palys told me they got too much light, LPS retracted up and I've been scooping dead coral out for the past week. I've lost about 30 or so corals already and am still losing. I've taken some zoas put them in afterwards to test, they seem to be doing ok but still a little pissed off. All my Acros have RTN and are gone. Monti is fading out now. My parameters are all in check except for a spike in phosphates. My crummy phosphate test kit read a low reading. 1st time ever showing ANYTHING and I'm seeing a nasty looking fuzzy brown algae taking root all over the tank, not growing over anything but definitely everywhere. Nitrates are near zero and I'm getting a fair amount of algae on the glass. I've run a scrubber since the beginning of this tank about 6 months ago and never had algae like this. My scrubber has been going crazy recently from die off but I don't think it can keep up because the nitrates may be limiting it. Seem to be in a vicious cycle, stuff dying, releasing phosphates in the water and pissing everything else off which had already been burned. I threw a small bag of RowaPhos in the overflow and I also switched from red sea salt to reef crystals and will be doing some water changes. This has me just about ready to walk away, but the addict that I am brings me back in spite of it all. I'll keep my eyes glued to this thread for the next week and if I make any headway I'll let you know.
 

MadReefer

Staff member
NJRC Member
Moderator
It seems you changed many things in a fairly short amount of time: light, fuge, and substrate.
Could it be your tank is cycling again?
 
Welcome aboard. Are you using an RO/DI unit to make your water? I think if I were you I'd just do a re-start.
i am using ro/di. i checked to see expiration date on test kits and couldnt locate them i found the lot number but no exp. i did turn my lights down by the potentionmeter before i left for work this morning.
 

mnat

Officer Emeritus
Staff member
Moderator
If the conclusion we are coming to is that is was the LEDs shocking the corals which started your problems you have several things you can look at. First, obviously turning them lower helps and slowly over time bringing them up. I think most recommend starting around %25 or so and moving about %5 a week. You can also look into getting wide optics, like 120 degree which will help spread the light out over more of a surface area which could help.

One last question, only because I had this problem. How do you test your salinity and have you calibrated that recently?
 
If the conclusion we are coming to is that is was the LEDs shocking the corals which started your problems you have several things you can look at. First, obviously turning them lower helps and slowly over time bringing them up. I think most recommend starting around %25 or so and moving about %5 a week. You can also look into getting wide optics, like 120 degree which will help spread the light out over more of a surface area which could help.

One last question, only because I had this problem. How do you test your salinity and have you calibrated that recently?

i did turn them down my 4 head purple hammer now has 3 heads :/ i did lower the light before i left for work this morning and will gradually bring it up.......as for testing salinty i use both a hydrometer sp? and a refactor i have never checked them but they are both same readings... thank you all for your help i will post updates (hopefully positive) and shawn in a few weeks im going to need to visit to buy more of my most favorite corals torches, hammers, and hopefully my frogspawn pulls through.
 
No problem! Hate takin money from people this way..... We'll take care of you on some extras. You've been good to us. I like Mike's suggestion though. Recently another person had us check his water. Salinity was way low due to a refractometer not being calibrated right. I've always hated them personally. I use 3 different hydrometers just to verify they're all reading the same. You gotta figure the way I take water out of my tank when we sell corals, and battling top off (which I can't do with an automatic).... It's a constant battle. Also, Justin had a similar low reading on his phosphates with a test kit and it turned out they were way higher than the kit was showing. There's multiple kinds of phosphates in your system and unfortunately the test kits only test for one of them. Pump up the phosban, go heavy on water changes, and hopefully you and the Mrs will be over smiling and telling me good news!
 

mnat

Officer Emeritus
Staff member
Moderator
When we moved into our house a year ago we had a die off of corals in our 57g tank that was maddening. We tested and restested and figured it was the leds on the tank. Turn out our refractometer was not properly calibrated. We were calibrating it with fresh water which you should not do (get a testing solution). Our salinity was really low which makes it almost impossible to keep your params in check and they start swinging rapidly which lead to the coral death. Once we figured out the problem, it helped immensely. That is why I always ask that question.
 
Do we have an update on the tank?
Just curious. Same issues here, I'm wondering if it had anything to do with the LEDs or ich treatment. Which LEDs did you add? About 2 weeks or so prior to my crash I threw 14 cool blues 470-480nm and 10 417nm violet actinics. I ran them very low, maybe no higher than 20%, whites around 35-40% (wishing I kept a log now) but I have roughly 70+ LEDs over my 90g tank... Also, I treated with Kordon's ich attack days prior. All my LPS blew up huge and looked fantastic. bout a week after increasing LEDs, everything turned on me. I'm just completely clueless as to what it could be. I'm looking into a pathogen as well, I took a few frags from my nano that crashed, dipped and thought I'd be safe, then tried to bring them back in my 90 cause everything was looking so good. Tank crashed 2 days later... Also spotted a rather large community of monti nudis that explains the demise of my montipora. Can't explain the death of my other corals though, unless the monti or nudis started throwing off some toxic substance as a result of their smorgasbord. All my parameters were in check and RO water is nearly perfect. I may never find the cause, could be just a combination of things and a bit of coincidence that both tanks went the same way. This has definitely got me rethinking my whole approach to this hobby now... wish you luck!
 
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