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Fish Only Tank
- Thread starter RichT
- Start date
Rich when I first started out, I was fish only :
I found using the canister(used a magnum) was a pain as I had to clean it every other day. At a minimum I would go with the wet dry, lots of LR don't worry about using bio balls in this system.
I found using the canister(used a magnum) was a pain as I had to clean it every other day. At a minimum I would go with the wet dry, lots of LR don't worry about using bio balls in this system.Cleaning it is going to be a b****
RichT said:
sinkingbeach said:
I disagree here, FO or FOWLR is what I did for almost 12+ years. A cannister is a perfect solution, but some are better than others when it comes to cleaning. We all now know that keeping the sponges clean is important, but not as critical as reef because of Nitrates buildup. (Fish can tolerate nitrates fine - 40-60 is fine).
The magnum is a bitch to clean, here is where Fluval wins hands down. The foam are is a verticial cartridge. Buy extra foam pads (they are cheap), then about every 3 or 4 days, just turn off the Fluval, open the top, don't move the unit just pull up the frame that holds the spings, replace the sponges with your spares, put the top back on, fire it back up. Takes 30 seconds. Rinse the old sponges for the next change. Then its only a matter of of changing out the carbon once every 2 weeks. You WILL go through carbon faster in FO.
Make sure at least one chamber of the canisster has some type of BIO rings (I prefer BIO MAX cubes) to give the bacteria something to cling to.
Thats all you need other than a once a month vacumming of the substrate if no cleaning crew.
RichT said:
I will start out this post by stating up front that this is an opinion post. Others may disagree, that's fine.
In my opinion there is no such thing as simple or cheep when it comes to a SW system. Please note that I use the word "system" rather than aquarium. This is because SW goes far beyond getting a tank, filling it with salt water and fish.
I believe that if you want to have a high probability of having a successful system, you need not have all "the bells and whistles", but you do need to meet some minimum requirements.
I would consider a FOWRR (Fish Only With Live Rock) to be the minimum decent system. Having tried FO (Fish Only) systems, for many years before reef systems became popular, I have found that they just do not work very well. The required biological filtration just can't be maintained very well with a canister filter or with an under gravel filter. It's just not very easy to maintain high quality water.
You mention that you would prefer not to use live rock. I would highly recommend that you use live rock or similar base rock such as coral rock or even aragocrete rocks (see offsite ling - http://www.garf.org/ )I feel that you need something to be the biological filter media, and that it should not be part of a canister filter setup. I don't think any other way really works out very will. If you attempt to use only a canister filter, not only do you have very little biological filtration,but if clean the whole thing, you have instantly destroyed your bacteria filtration. This will result in an ammonia spike and a tank of very dead fish.
Canister filters can be used in SW systems, although they are not ideal. The need to be cleaned every week, or else it becomes a dirt trap. Remember, all the mechanical part of the filtration does is being all the dirt to one place, so you easily can remove it. Until you clean the filter, the dirt and other waist material is still in the system.
The filtration system is the life blood of a SW system. If you need to use a canister, I would recommend an Ehiem. Yes, they do cost twice as much, but the quality of construction, and long life makes them worth every penny. I consider them far superior to Fluval or Magnum.
While we are on filtration, even with a canister, unless you are setting up a nano, I would recommend a "hang on the tank" skimmer. A skimmer will remove waste products before the biological filtration needs to break them down. This results in far higher water quality. I would recommend something like an AquaC Remora, or similar skimmer, depending upon the size of the tank.
While fish can tolerate higher nitrates than corals, I still recommend keeping this as low as possible. It will keep down nuisance algae, and the fish will thrive.
You friends should realize that this is not an inexpensive hobby. You will need to spend money on a decent filtration, and a host,
Lastly, before doing anything else, I recommend your friends invest in several books on SW systems. The time reading them will prevent a lot of beginner errors. Making errors in SW quickly results in a tank of very dead fish.
Thanks everyone, Im going to direct them to Live Aquaria to check out the fish. I figured it would be easier to sticker shock them out of wanting to set up a FO tank. I know the tank will end up failing but its tough to tell someone you don't think they are capable. I'm looking for a least impact/requirement type of option. I figured if they were to succeed then I'd point them towards upgrading.
rich, what size tank are we talking about?
if you look in the nano(40 gal or less) thread you can see my 20 gal mixed reef
my set up uses an aquaclear hang on filter and a hang on prizm skimmer both very cheep in comparison to high-end filters but this system started as a fowlr and then went to full blown reef.
i like the aquaclear filter because cleaning is easy ( turn off,change out the cartridges and restart the filter) it takes 3-5 minutes tops once a week and the tank will stay clean
a fish only tank can be done like this but i also would recommend the live rock because of the surface area needed for bacteria to colonize.
the filters just dont have enough room to get the job done.
hope it helps.......and happy reefing.........al
ps: seeing that they failed at a fresh water tank ,i also agree that you get your friends to read...read..and read some more before they get started..it will help them avoid some costly mistakes.
if you look in the nano(40 gal or less) thread you can see my 20 gal mixed reef
my set up uses an aquaclear hang on filter and a hang on prizm skimmer both very cheep in comparison to high-end filters but this system started as a fowlr and then went to full blown reef.
i like the aquaclear filter because cleaning is easy ( turn off,change out the cartridges and restart the filter) it takes 3-5 minutes tops once a week and the tank will stay clean
a fish only tank can be done like this but i also would recommend the live rock because of the surface area needed for bacteria to colonize.
the filters just dont have enough room to get the job done.
hope it helps.......and happy reefing.........al
ps: seeing that they failed at a fresh water tank ,i also agree that you get your friends to read...read..and read some more before they get started..it will help them avoid some costly mistakes.
Rich
Any aquarium (SW or FW) particularly fish-only ones require the following...a tank, a filter, a heater, lighting, periodic water changes and good husbandry habits such as no overfeeding, overcrowding or mixing incompatible fish. Under these conditions a canister filter is more than OK, particularly the ones they have now with quick disconnects without loss of siphon, etc.
Dom
Any aquarium (SW or FW) particularly fish-only ones require the following...a tank, a filter, a heater, lighting, periodic water changes and good husbandry habits such as no overfeeding, overcrowding or mixing incompatible fish. Under these conditions a canister filter is more than OK, particularly the ones they have now with quick disconnects without loss of siphon, etc.
Dom
I'll give ya my opinion also.
I'd go with a 2 or 3 inch sand bed (fine white play sand from HD). Add a couple of pieces of Live Rock for a bit of bacteria and for looks. I'd say most fish will be happier with a few pieces of rock to hind behind and whatnot. Doesn't need to be anything like a reef setup but more along the lines of what you would do with wood in a FW tank (hence a couple of rocks) only a bit more. Maybe on the order of 1/3 to 1/2 pound per gallon type thing. Pretty much any rock will do as long as it's safe in the tank to use.
Hold the canister filter since they can be a pain. Just go with a HOB BIO Wheel or something similar that can run a bag of carbon and/or GFO in. All you really care about is ammonia and nitrites for the most part. Nitrates don't matter much in a FO system and can be over 200 without much issue. However by having the 2" or 3" sand bed nitrates should be kept in fare check because the sand will also hold bacteria and help with the nitrates. An occasional bag of GFO might be needed on occasion if phosphates rise but a liquid phosphate remover could also be used.
No powerheads are needed but one small PH on the opposite side of the tank from the biowheel wouldn't be a bad idea just to keep the water moving a bit in a circular pattern.
This is pretty much the setup of one of my tanks (pentagon) and it's worked quite well. I originally was using a canister filter on it but got tied of spilling water on the hard wood floor so I tried the biowheel and like it better. Much easier IMHO for a FO system (or QT tank).
No skimmers, wet/dry, sumps or other elaborate setups are needed. Even lights don't matter. Basically a FW tank setup is fine IMHO for a SW fish only tank. KISS principle. Other then the biowheel a heater is the only thing I think they'd need.
Depending on their source water they may even be able to get by without using RO water.
Carlo
I'd go with a 2 or 3 inch sand bed (fine white play sand from HD). Add a couple of pieces of Live Rock for a bit of bacteria and for looks. I'd say most fish will be happier with a few pieces of rock to hind behind and whatnot. Doesn't need to be anything like a reef setup but more along the lines of what you would do with wood in a FW tank (hence a couple of rocks) only a bit more. Maybe on the order of 1/3 to 1/2 pound per gallon type thing. Pretty much any rock will do as long as it's safe in the tank to use.
Hold the canister filter since they can be a pain. Just go with a HOB BIO Wheel or something similar that can run a bag of carbon and/or GFO in. All you really care about is ammonia and nitrites for the most part. Nitrates don't matter much in a FO system and can be over 200 without much issue. However by having the 2" or 3" sand bed nitrates should be kept in fare check because the sand will also hold bacteria and help with the nitrates. An occasional bag of GFO might be needed on occasion if phosphates rise but a liquid phosphate remover could also be used.
No powerheads are needed but one small PH on the opposite side of the tank from the biowheel wouldn't be a bad idea just to keep the water moving a bit in a circular pattern.
This is pretty much the setup of one of my tanks (pentagon) and it's worked quite well. I originally was using a canister filter on it but got tied of spilling water on the hard wood floor so I tried the biowheel and like it better. Much easier IMHO for a FO system (or QT tank).
No skimmers, wet/dry, sumps or other elaborate setups are needed. Even lights don't matter. Basically a FW tank setup is fine IMHO for a SW fish only tank. KISS principle. Other then the biowheel a heater is the only thing I think they'd need.
Depending on their source water they may even be able to get by without using RO water.
Carlo
Carlo said:
Just a small comment on biowheel HOB filters that is not about their filtration efficency (which I also think is great). I had products from two different companies, and both of them were creating a fine mist of splashed water. While this is hardly noticeable in FW systems, in a salt system, this myst will slowly deposit small amounts of salt on its surrounding, and after prolonged use the accumulated salt can be substantial. With my first tank, it was unfortunate that it was a kitchen wall behind it, that, after 6 months or so, got a decent amount of salt on it, which permiated inside the drywall and ruined it :-[ (which my wife never fails to point out in our little "discussions"
). Salt kreep was very strong all around them and I could never completely avoid dripping water when changing filters. :-\
Rich,
set it up with a wet/dry. I would strongly recommend running a UV sterilizer, and copper depending on the fish. Anything with Angelfish or Butterflies should get the Cu at a level of about .01-.02 (.015 being ideal) ppm.
The problem with setups like these, is the decor. Over time algae grows all over the corals, and you need to bleach them to get them clean again. A real pain in the ass IMO. Many commercial setups are done like this (restaurants, dentists, etc.)
If you can convince them to do a 125 or so, there are lots of great, easy fish options. Lutescent Wrasse, Niger/Blue Jaw Triggers, Squirrelfish, Puffers, Lionfish, Hogfish (nothin prettier than a Spanish Hog in a FO) etc.
set it up with a wet/dry. I would strongly recommend running a UV sterilizer, and copper depending on the fish. Anything with Angelfish or Butterflies should get the Cu at a level of about .01-.02 (.015 being ideal) ppm.
The problem with setups like these, is the decor. Over time algae grows all over the corals, and you need to bleach them to get them clean again. A real pain in the ass IMO. Many commercial setups are done like this (restaurants, dentists, etc.)
If you can convince them to do a 125 or so, there are lots of great, easy fish options. Lutescent Wrasse, Niger/Blue Jaw Triggers, Squirrelfish, Puffers, Lionfish, Hogfish (nothin prettier than a Spanish Hog in a FO) etc.
joetbs said:
I fail to see why anyone would run copper, especially at that level, in a tank that contains Angelfish or Butterflies. Thats usually considered a treatment level for parasites.
I have seen LFSs do this because they don't want to have a disease problem, but I'd consider this a long term problem in a home system.
Rich
Bill asks an important question about what kind of fish he plans to keep. The answer will directly affect other issues raised in the thread such as whether to use cooper, how deep a sandbed to use etc. For example to me, big fish = lots of detritus = shallow sandbed or as DaveK notes, Angels/Butterflies are sensitive fish that react badly to copper so perhaps keeping salinity at say
1.019 would be better. (Note: copper is toxic to all fish and IMO its use should be minimal).
Dom
Bill asks an important question about what kind of fish he plans to keep. The answer will directly affect other issues raised in the thread such as whether to use cooper, how deep a sandbed to use etc. For example to me, big fish = lots of detritus = shallow sandbed or as DaveK notes, Angels/Butterflies are sensitive fish that react badly to copper so perhaps keeping salinity at say
1.019 would be better. (Note: copper is toxic to all fish and IMO its use should be minimal).
Dom
AnDom1 said:
The answer I get when I ask is pretty, colorful ones. Of course I responded "that's not good enough to give advice". Then I directed them to LiveAquaria and Marine Center to look at the fish. Honestly, I'm hoping the sticker shock will deter them. I'm pretty sure the tank will fail quickly and we'll end up with a bunch of dead fish. But it's my wife's girlfriend and her husband so I'm trying to not insult them and stay out of the dog house. I'm almost tempted to set it up with a couple fish I wouldn't mind adding to my tank and when things start going south (if they even tell me) yank them, QT, and add to my tank.
I appreciate all the advice. I'll probably recommend a couple pieces of cured live rock from the LFS, course aggregate substrate, and a canister filter. Of course a heater, maxi jet and light (probably compact PC) as well.
OK I am a huge newbie but let me reply anyways because my pain is fresh.
First scares me that they are using a "failed" FW system. 30+years of FW and it wasn't
a whole lot of help with salt.
Second...who ever said don't worry about RO water ...worry I am still trying to get the crap out of my system.
Third...go with LR over fake crap, it will be benificial and add stability. The fake crap you cannot keep clean.
Fourth...copper will kill your Inverts right? Of course if they used copper to treat their FW problems it is probably soaked into the system (yeah I did that :-[)
Good luck like you said have them buy stuff you want. Make them read as much as possible here and everywhere.
First scares me that they are using a "failed" FW system. 30+years of FW and it wasn't
a whole lot of help with salt.
Second...who ever said don't worry about RO water ...worry I am still trying to get the crap out of my system.
Third...go with LR over fake crap, it will be benificial and add stability. The fake crap you cannot keep clean.
Fourth...copper will kill your Inverts right? Of course if they used copper to treat their FW problems it is probably soaked into the system (yeah I did that :-[)
Good luck like you said have them buy stuff you want. Make them read as much as possible here and everywhere.