I hit 0 on Ammonia and Nitrite after a little over 2 weeks, but my Nitrate has gone up to the 40-80 range for the last several days (can't tell difference on API Saltwater Master Test Kit). I even did a 30% water change and cleaned out my filter and it was still at this range. My tank setup is as such. 46 gallon bow-front, 60 lbs CaribSea AragAlive Fiji Pink (all live sand), 30 lbs Tonga Lalo (uncured), and 22 lbs of Select Premium Fiji Live Rock from Dr. Foster + Smith. I am running an Ehiem 2213 canister filter, a AquaC Remora Protein Skimmer, a Hydor Koralia 3, and my temp is set to 76 degrees and I am using Oceanic Sea Salt at 1.025. I know that Nitrates are supposed to spike after Nitrites are gone and that high Ammonia is usually the cause of high Nitrates, but my Ammonia was never high at all and hit zero pretty quickly. Could this effect be from me using a toothbrush to clean off dieoff from my rock about halfway through my cycle? Any suggestions why or how to lower Nitrates. I have been told to do multiple water changes, but I just want to know what might have caused this huge spike and what to do. Thanks
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High Nitrates at end of cycle!
- Thread starter Altohombre
- Start date
What you have is typical for a new tank with now live rock.
With a lot of die off, you have a lot of ammonia to process, and that gets processed into nitrite and then nitrate. Just because you didn't see a big spike doesn't mean no ammonia was processed. It simple means that there was enough or almost enough bacteria to process the ammonia, so there was little of no spike.
Yes, water changes are the way to correct this. You'll need to do a about 6 water chanegs changing about 30% of the water each time to get the reading down. You may want to wait a few weeks before you start doing this, just to make sure the initial cycle is complete.
Don't rush things and you'll be fine.
With a lot of die off, you have a lot of ammonia to process, and that gets processed into nitrite and then nitrate. Just because you didn't see a big spike doesn't mean no ammonia was processed. It simple means that there was enough or almost enough bacteria to process the ammonia, so there was little of no spike.
Yes, water changes are the way to correct this. You'll need to do a about 6 water chanegs changing about 30% of the water each time to get the reading down. You may want to wait a few weeks before you start doing this, just to make sure the initial cycle is complete.
Don't rush things and you'll be fine.
To add to what DaveK said.
Myself I would go easy on the water changes and do no more then 25% weekly to give the bacteria a chance to multiple and process the current nitrates. You need this bacteria to build up or you are going to have problems once the tank has a fish load.
I would start adding a couple pieces of flake food to the tank daily so there is some small amount of ammonia/nitrites in the tank. If you don't add a food source the bacteria that process ammonia and nitrites will die off and you'll be back with a new cycle once the fish are added to the tank.
By adding the small amount of food you will keep the bacteria active. Once the nitrates are under 5 (zero) if you do larger water changes you are ready for ONE small fish. Don't overdue it from the start. Add a fish and wait a couple of weeks while monitoring the big 3 A/Ni/Na and when ready add the second fish, etc...
Carlo
Myself I would go easy on the water changes and do no more then 25% weekly to give the bacteria a chance to multiple and process the current nitrates. You need this bacteria to build up or you are going to have problems once the tank has a fish load.
I would start adding a couple pieces of flake food to the tank daily so there is some small amount of ammonia/nitrites in the tank. If you don't add a food source the bacteria that process ammonia and nitrites will die off and you'll be back with a new cycle once the fish are added to the tank.
By adding the small amount of food you will keep the bacteria active. Once the nitrates are under 5 (zero) if you do larger water changes you are ready for ONE small fish. Don't overdue it from the start. Add a fish and wait a couple of weeks while monitoring the big 3 A/Ni/Na and when ready add the second fish, etc...
Carlo
Carlo do you work at Allquatics? I see your name on a lot of their posts. I am planning to get my inverts and fish when ready from Allquatics because I visited the store and liked it a lot. So much in fact I wrote a review on this site. Anyway I know patience is the key and I have done a lot of research but I am almost 3 weeks into waiting and including myself, my gf and two roommates are pushing me to get this thing started. I was really excited once my Ammonia and Nitrite hit 0 and I figured Nitrate would be easy to control, but it seems like this may be a long process. Any idea why my tank which I tried to do everything perfectly seems to have such a high Nitrate level even though I am using good products?
I'd personally change about 60% of the water and start with a small fish (one that you plan on keeping forever, rather than a damsel type "cycle" fish). High nitrate is part of the process. I wouldn't worry about it unless they climb way high again after a major water change.
If your trates were 80 and you did a 30% wc with 0 trate water, you'd end up with about 45-55 trates in the tank after the change. So if you can't tell the difference between 40 and 80 that would explain why you didn't see an appreciable change.
Good luck and welcome to NJRC.
If your trates were 80 and you did a 30% wc with 0 trate water, you'd end up with about 45-55 trates in the tank after the change. So if you can't tell the difference between 40 and 80 that would explain why you didn't see an appreciable change.
Good luck and welcome to NJRC.
Altohombre said:
DON'T LET ANYONE INFLUENCE you to move quicker then what you think should be done. You got it right, PATIENCE, PATIENCE and more PATIENCE. The more solid your starting foundation is the better your tank will do when you start adding the fish and inverts.
Here's the kicker. The bacteria that process ammonia and nitrites multiply very fast while the bacteria that process nitrates are much slower growing their population. If you artificially lower your nitrates now with big water changes all you do is get a false sense of water quality/bacteria population. The point of the cycle is to build up these bacteria and if one set of bacteria growth isn't up to par without fish in the tank it's only going to cause you grief when you get fish in there as the nitrates will rise even faster.
I myself don't do water changes AT ALL during cycling as I don't want any outside influence changing my readings. I want to see exactly how much the levels are being reduced by the bacteria populations. Now if the nitrates are off the charts or over 40 or something that is hard to read on the test kit scale then by all means feel free to dilute the water down with a water change or two but once you can get a solid reading I like to stay with that. Say you do a water change and now can tell you have a solid 40 ppm nitrates. In a week you might be down to 20 ppm. If so you KNOW the bacteria is doing it's thing and you can add a small fish and watch the levels again to see if they rise or continue to fall etc... Just make sure to feed a piece or two of flake food to the tank daily to keep the ammonia/nitrite reducing bacteria alive and healthy.
There is no RIGHT or WRONG way to go about this and you'll get multiple "correct" answers to this question depending on who you ask. Some will say do water changes, others moderate water changes while others will say not to do any. I'm sort of in the "leave it alone" mode unless you can't read the nitrate reading because it's to high. I also would think it would be fine to change out 25% of the water until you get it down to 10 ppm nitrates and then leave it to process by itself until the levels have hit 5 ppm. As long as you see it drop you are probably OK for a new small hardy fish IMHO.
There are also bacteria products you can add directly to the tank that will help greatly with the nitrates. However, these products aren't cheap but do work extremely well. Some products are junk too. You have to know which is good and which is close to snake oil or only effective with ammonia and nitrites. With the use of one of these products (Bio Spira Marine is good) you could add this (skimmer off for 2 days) bacteria in a foil bag and almost immediately introduce a small fish at the same time. So this is good OPTION if patience is getting the best of you.
I think most will agree to start out with a very light bio-load (one fish) and monitor the tank from there. I personally wouldn't add any inverts when starting as they generally require "better" water then the typical starting fish will. I'd start with one fish, then when the time is right add another fish, then maybe a half dozen snails, etc... Adding livestock in steps is KEY so you give the bacteria a chance to grow to the new needs of the tank. Also just in case you rush things a bit to much and have a problem you will have only lost one fish (worst case) instead of several as often happens to those who try and rush the startup.
But like I said earlier this is just my personal opinion and only one way to get the job done.
Carlo
PS: Yes, to the store question, but since this is the General Discussion forum I don't want to comment further then simply answer that's the place.
thank you very much for your information.
Could my nitrates be high because the intake to my canister filter is in the back right corner of my tank near my powerhead and heater that may cause a slightly slower water flow spot?
2nd question... I have 2" of sand (for a FOWLR tank) give or take a little either way around my tank. However, most people say 1" or less, or 3"+ for DSB. I am afraid that if I add too much sand that it will cover up too much of the rock, but I also want enough room for my future snails and watchman goby to play in. Is 2" good enough?
2nd question... I have 2" of sand (for a FOWLR tank) give or take a little either way around my tank. However, most people say 1" or less, or 3"+ for DSB. I am afraid that if I add too much sand that it will cover up too much of the rock, but I also want enough room for my future snails and watchman goby to play in. Is 2" good enough?
If you are getting good water movement in the tank (you should be) then it really shouldn't matter where you get the water from.
I myself have never bought into the idea of < 1" or > 3" of sand. The explanations given don't make sense to me from a scientific standpoint. It's like a combination rule that pacifies the thin and thick sand beds advocates.
I've done lots of personal studies on nitrates in test tanks with all kinds of media and thicknesses. 2" does better then 1" at processing nitrates while 3" does better then 2". There was no downside to 2" over either 1" or 3".
The basic idea behind that "rule" is that it takes 3" to really get good nitrate reduction (true) and at 1" you don't run into problems with stirring/mixing up the sandbed. So the <1" or >3" has some truth in it from a safety standpoint. The problem with the rule is that 2" does provide some nitrate processing abilities (more then 1") in pockets and also isn't as problematic as a 3" sand bed.
So I'd personally just ignore the rule altogether. Just go for the amount you think looks visually good to you and if you want true nitrate processing abilities go for a remote deep sand bed (RDSB) like the sand in a bucket approach plumbed into the system.
Carlo
I myself have never bought into the idea of < 1" or > 3" of sand. The explanations given don't make sense to me from a scientific standpoint. It's like a combination rule that pacifies the thin and thick sand beds advocates.
I've done lots of personal studies on nitrates in test tanks with all kinds of media and thicknesses. 2" does better then 1" at processing nitrates while 3" does better then 2". There was no downside to 2" over either 1" or 3".
The basic idea behind that "rule" is that it takes 3" to really get good nitrate reduction (true) and at 1" you don't run into problems with stirring/mixing up the sandbed. So the <1" or >3" has some truth in it from a safety standpoint. The problem with the rule is that 2" does provide some nitrate processing abilities (more then 1") in pockets and also isn't as problematic as a 3" sand bed.
So I'd personally just ignore the rule altogether. Just go for the amount you think looks visually good to you and if you want true nitrate processing abilities go for a remote deep sand bed (RDSB) like the sand in a bucket approach plumbed into the system.
Carlo
The tank is new - if you didn't have any nitrates after a cycle I'd be surprised.
Just do some water changes and then check the parameters. Don't sweat it...patience (and a few water changes) will reward you.
long term - you should read some more posts on the forum and make your own decision on whether a cannister filter is a good idea or not for your tank.
Just do some water changes and then check the parameters. Don't sweat it...patience (and a few water changes) will reward you.
long term - you should read some more posts on the forum and make your own decision on whether a cannister filter is a good idea or not for your tank.
Carlo said:
Carlo, i thought a big factor in your sandbed depth was the particle size of the sand? i.e. sugar-size or oolite sand creates anaerobic pockets at shallower depths, while bigger diameter grade sand requires a deeper bed to nurture denitrifying bacteria. Did you see this in your experiments?
I also read an article by Ron Shimek where he showed different bacterial life grows only on certain grain sizes, so for diversity of bacteria he suggested a sandbed that comprises of different grain sizes.
The sand size I am using is I believe the small sugar grain size. It is the CaribSea AragAlive Fiji Pink. My nitrates are currently at 40 now. I just did another 25% water change so I am hoping it will be at around 30 by tomorrow. Another thing I heard was that my cause of higher nitrates may be because I left my filter media in my Eheim canister filter throughout the cycle process. I did however just clean it out the other day and really only saw some sand in there in terms of dirtiness. I really do not want to start another cycle by adding my remaining 20 lbs of live sand and that is why I may just leave it at the 2" range.
hayabusa2003 said:
Yep, I'd agree with that completely. The finer the particle size the better from a nitrate processing ability but you don't want it packed so you mix in denser particle size sand so you get pockets. It's in these pockets that most of the nitrate breakdown takes place.
Carlo