A discussion on Immunity

[Paul B]

JRWOHLER, too many people are cringing when they read about dirt. A few weeks ago we were at a bar be cue at my friends house and my Daughter's friend had here baby there. I saw the baby on the grass eating grass and dirt so I told her Mother who is a school principal. She surprised me by saying, I don't stop her from doing that because I want to boost her immune system. Now that Mom is 38 years old and I was so surprised to hear that answer. I mean, I believe it but most young people go crazy if they see a baby put something dirty in their mouth.
If you go to a museum, look at the cave Man exhibit and see if you can see any of them holding that sanitizing hand spray. In most cases you won't see that and cave men (and girls) got along just fine. The ones that died young was because of that saber tooth tiger problem they had and the fact that if they wanted a hamburger, they had to take down a 2,000lb mastodon using a stick and harsh language.

Ntiger, you are kind of young for my theory. My Daughter is 38 and she is also too young. I am talking about more growing up in the fifties and sixties. Kids growing up today are in big trouble which is why you can't get an appointment to see a doctor for 6 months. So many more people are sick these days and we didn't get any of this stuff.
It's hard to cut yourself or get dirty playing with an I Pad inside a sterile house or texting your friend about a new Net flex movie or computer game.

We used to go to this lot that had construction debris in it and throw 8' fluorescent tubes at each other. They smashed all over us and so far, no one got cancer or glows in the dark. We also had a rope swing there where most of us broke an arm or leg, but never got sick. I would wade through huge puddles in the mud catching tadpoles then drink the water from the lake. Never got sick.
I spent a year in the jungle in Nam, never got sick.
Every few months we would get hot ice cream and it would be melted in the bottom of the canvas that was slung below a helicopter. We would push away the gunpowder, bugs, mud, and lizzards and scoop out the ice cream with our helmts and drink it as that was a treat. Never got sick.
I did lose my hair but many real Men don't need hair. I'm bringing Sexy back.

 

[Paul B]

This is great and what I have been saying for decades.

Nutrigenomics and immune function in fish: new insights from omics technologies - ScienceDirect

 

[Paul B]

My wife and I just came back from a talk on MS by my wife's Neurologist who is touted as the best MS specialist on Long Island. Anyway the talk was about the immune system and the MS treatments, especially the new ones. There is a lot of interest now in gut bacteria and how it can change the immune system and how it can alter our immune system. They can now take gut bacteria from a thin person and transfer it to an overweight person and the overweight person will lost some weight and if the bacteria stay viable by introducing new foods, that person can stay thin. They have also had some success curing diabetes using the same procedure.
I was discussing with him (he is also a friend of ours) how my fish are immune seemingly from everything and he agrees it could be from the live bacteria and pathogens in the clams and live worms guts that gets transferred to the fish. This theory of changing gut bacteria is fairly new and even he said that that is the future of medicine. I said, the main reason they are not doing to much of it is because it is not a big money maker for any drug company. I mean Poop doesn't cost to much.
I am going to ask him if he will help me write an article because he specializes in the immune system and is very knowledgeable about T cells, white cells, macrophages etc.

 

[Mark_C]

Ha! No joke, I was thinking along lines earlier today as I fed some worms to my fish, complete with some of the dirt and worm poop they hang out in.
My thought process was 'What would the tank purists think?', followed by the thought that... 'If a baby were in a pure oxygen bubble for its first few years then a simple cold virus found its way in it would be devastating.'

Come to think of it...
Yesterday I rinsed a bunch of algae off some cheato with TAP WATER! A large piece even fell into the sink that often has SOAP and DIRTY THINGS in it. I carried it by hand, in a NON-SECURE NON-REGULATED CONTAINER (err. my hand) and threw it into the tank. I expect the entire tank to be dead within 48 hours.

Regardless...

There was a show on a number of years back, either National Geo or Smithsonian, which addressed gut bacteria. It mentioned the low levels of allergies pre 1940s and 50s, and the incredible surge in allergies through the 60s and 70s to todays numbers. Seems there was a relation to intestinal worms, symbiotic, which we had since the start. When we discovered them in the late 40s, early 50s, we decided to eradicate them as we didn't need 'worms' in our guts.
A researcher with considerable allergies (pollen, and i think nuts and another I don't recall) reintroduced the fauna to himself (this must have been around 2008) and there was a substantial decrease in reaction to all allergens, with one allergy totally negated.
They were convinced that reintroducing gut fauna we've worked to eradicate is the future of health. It was fascinating.
At the time it never made mainstream news and its hard to find any journal references (as I don't know study name or author(s) name(s)).
Will try to snag some info and post when I have time to dig the interwebie thing.

Very interested if you have any more article or journal links (biped links good).

Edit: Going back and revisiting our thoughts from the beginning of this thread, interesting how this is developing 0ver past 3 years.

 

[Paul B]

Marc humans have only been living in sterile environments for the last 100 years. Before that, we basically pooped in the streets and ate filthy, half spoiled food. People have been around living like that for millions of years and we had no prizapro. The reason my fish are seemingly immune to everything IMO is the gut bacteria in the worms and clams I feed almost every day. We will one day change our ideas on this hobby and embrace some types bacteria, viruses and parasites as valuable life forms that help us rather than kill us. Without our gut bacteria we would die.. It is such a simple concept and fish are not at all delicate. There is no need for them to have to be taught to eat and to make feeders for fish such as copperbands etc. Almost all fish should ravish food and in a tank with no predators they should not be shy.

I always rinse my fish food in tap water and if it falls in the sink or the floor, I scoop it up and dump it in the tank. I feed live worms with the dirt. My fish won't get sick, it just can't happen. When I move in a few weeks, that's another story.

 

[MadReefer]

I just read an article by a doctor regarding all the above. It explains how your gut bacteria can be destroyed for many reasons and can a long time to get back. Even talked to bad and good bacteria stating bad bacteria makes you hungry and crave non-nutritious food which can make people fat. I have started taking probiotics and prebiotics to help my gut. So far cravings have slowed and don't feel as hungry during the day like before. Still fat but time will tell. Yes, I do exercise about 3x a week.

 

[Jeremy Brito]

Hey @Paul B awesome article as always, I think you hit the nail on the head with this. In theory this is exactly the same in humans, recently I had a discussion during a lecture about allergies at Big Bobs trauma rama regarding why children today have more allergies to food then kids 40 years ago (time period might be off a few years) the thinking is that some time ago the teaching to pediatricians was to tell parents with new borns to avoid all foods containing common allergenic matter (peanuts, milk, strawberries, gluten ECT..) And keep there babies clean as possible. they taught this because of the concern of fatal allergic reactions and illnesses in children under the age of 2.
.
By doing this it is now thought to be the cause of highest numbers ever seen years of children with sever allergies to food products.
.
New research shows that by exposing children 3 weeks to 6 months to these allergens gives them a much higher chance to developing an immunity, because in that time period the childs immune system is in a sense still programming and developing at a much higher level then later on in its life span.
.
Forgive me this was explained much more scientificly during the lecture, but the point I am making is that like Paul said about exposing our fish to bacteria in the gut of the food we feed it instead of sterilizing the fish and tossing it in to a tank with stuff its body has never learned to fight off we give are fish a much beter chance.
.
Broad spectrum anti-biotic and anti-parasitics have there place in helping are fish but also can do equal harm if not used properly

 

[MadReefer]

Hey @Paul B awesome article as always, I think you hit the nail on the head with this. In theory this is exactly the same in humans, recently I had a discussion during a lecture about allergies at Big Bobs trauma rama regarding why children today have more allergies to food then kids 40 years ago (time period might be off a few years) the thinking is that some time ago the teaching to pediatricians was to tell parents with new borns to avoid all foods containing common allergenic matter (peanuts, milk, strawberries, gluten ECT..) And keep there babies clean as possible. they taught this because of the concern of fatal allergic reactions and illnesses in children under the age of 2.
.
By doing this it is now thought to be the cause of highest numbers ever seen years of children with sever allergies to food products.
.
New research shows that by exposing children 3 weeks to 6 months to these allergens gives them a much higher chance to developing an immunity, because in that time period the childs immune system is in a sense still programming and developing at a much higher level then later on in its life span.
.
Forgive me this was explained much more scientificly during the lecture, but the point I am making is that like Paul said about exposing our fish to bacteria in the gut of the food we feed it instead of sterilizing the fish and tossing it in to a tank with stuff its body has never learned to fight off we give are fish a much beter chance.
.
Broad spectrum anti-biotic and anti-parasitics have there place in helping are fish but also can do equal harm if not used properly

Also, doctors will tell you for seasonal allergies to build up immune system eat local honey.

 

[Paul B]

Jeremy, I am not sure why many people don't believe this in this hobby and there is so much fish sickness when they should never get sick.. We are making them sick.

Also, doctors will tell you for seasonal allergies to build up immune system eat local honey.

I like to go right to the source and eat the bees.

 

[MadReefer]

Stinger and all.

 

[Paul B]

The stinger is the best part.

A little while ago my door bell rang and I went upstairs to see who it was. It was this guy dressed in a bug exterminator uniform with a picture of a bug on it.
I told him I don't need any bug exterminators and I walked into my back yard. He follows me explaining how important it is to kill bugs and that his company is the best bug killing company and how they can tell a lady bug from a preying mantis and a moose from a duck billed platypus and I wasn't paying much attention.
So i turned around and this giant carpenter bee lands on his sleeve. It looked like a Blackhawk helicopter. The guy went nuts. He got the horrors and I thought he was going to have a coronary. Even the bug on his uniform was scared. I just flicked the thing off his sleeve but as it went away, it hit him in the face. I thought I was going to have to take him to the emergency room.

I said, " your not the guy who comes and kills the bugs, Are You?"