Auto top off issue

[arvin]

Hello,

I am trying to setup an auto top off system. See the pic below:



The blue container holds the fresh water from the ro/di unit. I use a Mag 5 pump to push the water up to the sump. I installed this only a couple of days ago and have not setup the sensors yet. I am manually operating the pump currently. Last night when I ran this pump to do top off, the water kept pouring even after the pump was off. I started panicking and tried to pull the pump out of the container. I couldn't since it was a hard PVC connection. Next I tried to close the outlet in the sump with my hand tightly. That's when the water stopped. Any idea why this would happen? And how do I plumb this such that the water stops when the pump is turned off?

As the pic shows this is not a gravity feed. The sump is on the same level as the blue container. The days before yesterday the water stopped just fine only yesterday this happened and now I am too scared to try one more time.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[Joejoe]

My pump also won't break syphon when first placed in water. After the first top off pinch the hose untill the water stops coming out. After that you should be fine. I have to do this when ever I first fill my 5g bucket with new ro/di. After the first top off I stop the syphon by pinching the hose. After that it breaks syphon by itself. And this only happens when the pump is exposed to air then placed back into water. so I try to refill my bucket before the water gets too low and exposes the pump. I do have sensors in the sump and bucket the one in the bucket stops the pump when the water gets just below the intake of the pump. This is to late which causes my pump to be exposed to air (I need to raise the sensor in the bucket like a 1/2" so it cuts off before the intake is exposed). which I then have to break the syphon by pinching the hose but only on the first top off after that it's fine.

 

[ricwilli]

Make sure that the pvc outlet going to the sump is above the blue container. Honestly, I would have done it differently. I would have used two maxijets 1200 with 1/4 flexible tubing. The same tubing used on rodi unit. This is my setup now. The reason I have two pumps is because one day I came home from work and my maxijet (only one) stopped working. The water in the sump was very low. Now I have two maxijets connected to one ATO just in case one goes bad.

 

[ricwilli]

My pump also won't break syphon when first placed in water. After the first top off pinch the hose untill the water stops coming out. After that you should be fine. I have to do this when ever I first fill my 5g bucket with new ro/di. After the first top off I stop the syphon by pinching the hose. After that it breaks syphon by itself

I'm having a hard time understanding this. As long as the outlet is above water and above the bucket, you shouldn't get any siphon at all.

 

[steamman]

If the point of the water pipe going to your sump is lower than the water level in your storage barrel you are going to siphon the water out until the water reaches the same level on each end. Even if the pipe is above the water line in your sump it will still siphon. You can install an air gap at the top of the make up water discharge (highest point) before it goes down to your sump. That will stop the siphoning. Basically your pump discharges into a funnel or larger diameter pipe breaking the siphon at the top.

 

[Nickjr000]

+1 if the outlet is above u should never get a siphon. If its close then make sure the top off water level in the barrel isnt above the outlet. once thats above it will siphon

 

[arvin]

Make sure that the pvc outlet going to the sump is above the blue container.

above the container or above the pump in the container?

 

[Nickjr000]

If the point of the water pipe going to your sump is lower than the water level in your storage barrel you are going to siphon the water out until the water reaches the same level on each end. Even if the pipe is above the water line in your sump it will still siphon. You can install an air gap at the top of the make up water discharge (highest point) before it goes down to your sump. That will stop the siphoning. Basically your pump discharges into a funnel or larger diameter pipe breaking the siphon at the top.

Exactly. u posted same time as me steamer

 

[ricwilli]

above the container or above the pump in the container?

Above the level of water in the blue container. I would do, above the blue container.

 

[steamman]

Above the level of water in the blue container. I would do, above the blue container.

If the water level in your storage container is is above lets say the rim of your sump dumping water in from that height can be messy (splashing and such). So you dump the water into a larger diameter pipe and control the decent of the water into your sump therefore controlling the splashing. This "air gap" can be done at any elevation your pipe is run installed at the highest point.

 

[asonitez]

I struggled with this issue myself.

Like everyone else mentioned the reason that your water keeps pouring is because while the pump is on it will pump water from your top off container to your sump until the water in the top off container reaches equilibrium with the sump. This is because a siphon was created while the pump was on. Almost ALL PUMPS will do this. The best way to ensure that you will never OVERFILL your sup with ATO is with a float valve.

Basically I took a piece of Acrylic and heated it up over the stove and bent it into a hook. I then Drilled a hole and installed a float valve that had a 1/4" push in type connector for 1/4" silicon tubing. I placed this float valve in my sump at the level I want my sump to be at and hooked it up. What this does is allow your pump to push as much water as needed to fill your sump. When the float switch rises it shuts off the flow from the ATO container or Pump preventing a siphon. what I have found via my Apex controller that even though the sump stays filled that my pump rarely turns on. This is because my Float valveis about 1/8" higher than my sensor is. This means that for at least 60% of the time Gravity is responsible for refilling my tank through the siphon. When the water in the ATO gets low.. thats when the pump overcomes gravity to fill the sump.

 

[TanksNStuff]

Arvin, I think part of your problem is that your pvc pipe goes high up the wall, then over and down to the sump. I'm not sure of the exact level of the sump compared to the top of the container, but that could be a factor. Can you provide a pic with the sump and container in the same shot?

I just found a possible easy solution for you over on RC forums (See Pic below). Just put a TEE at the top of the PVC inside your blue container so the side outlet discharges above your water line. It will slow the flow while filling since some of the water gets sent back into the barrel... but it will definitely break siphon instantly after the pump is turned off. It also won't matter how low the discharge end of your pipe is in the sump.

The only issue I see is that the water from the first elbow on your PVC (coming out of the container) to the discharge end in the sump may gravity feed into the sump after the pump stops. Water in the pipe from your first elbow down will run right back into the container, but the volume in the horizontal portion may run either back to the sump or back to the container. I would change your piping to have a slight slope upwards toward the elbow that goes down into the sump. Adding a 45 on both ends of the horizontal run should do the trick.

 

[Joejoe]

Sorry for the high jack of this topic

Quote=I'm having a hard time understanding this. As long as the outlet is above water and above the bucket, you shouldn't get any siphon at all.

Thanks now I know why this happens. my outlet is about 4-5" lower than my 5g buckets water line when it is full. I had no idea this was why.


The green hose is my ATO outlet (feed) hose

 

[TanksNStuff]

Joejoe, that would certainly cause a siphon whenever the orange bucket is filled higher than the outlet of the green tubing. An easy fix for this would be to attach a pvc pipe to the corner of the sump. Have the bottom of the pvc pipe at or below the normal water level in that chamber, and have the top of pipe any height above your bucket. You could even add an elbow to the bottom to rest on the bottom of the sump to help stabilize the pipe if you want. Then just run the tube into the top of the pipe and fasten it with a clamp or tie strap or something.

As long as the pipe has a larger inside diameter than the outside diameter of the tube (ie, you leave room for air to pass the tube) then you fix the siphon issue.

 

[ricwilli]

Exactly what steamman said on post #10 or just run the green tube (I would use a maxijet with 1/4 tubing) behind the tank and into the overflow. I also do this on my second tank. Just make sure the tube does not go in the overflow water.

 

[Joejoe]

Cool thanks guys. I'm going to do the PVC pipe thing.

The problem with running the tube into my overflow is that it takes so many seconds for the water to travel into the sump were my sensor is. So by the time the water fills the sump up to the sensor there is already more water than needed still traveling down the main drain hose. Which over fills my sump.
I have to have my sensor in the last chamber were my main pump is because that is the only chamber that looses water. So that delay of traveling water delays the sensor from turning off the pump on time. which causes to much water to pump into my sump.
However the PVC thing will work for me. Thanks again guys.
And sorry for the high jack.

 

[steamman]

Cool thanks guys. I'm going to do the PVC pipe thing.

The problem with running the tube into my overflow is that it takes so many seconds for the water to travel into the sump were my sensor is. So by the time the water fills the sump up to the sensor there is already more water than needed still traveling down the main drain hose. Which over fills my sump.
I have to have my sensor in the last chamber were my main pump is because that is the only chamber that looses water. So that delay of traveling water delays the sensor from turning off the pump on time. which causes to much water to pump into my sump.
However the PVC thing will work for me. Thanks again guys.
And sorry for the high jack.

Just lower your float sensor to compensate for the overfilling. It should overfill the same amount every time your sump calls for water. I don't think it will make a difference unless you have many feet of piping and your sump is really tiny.

 

[Joejoe]

Can't my pump would run dry before the ATO turned on. It's as low as I can place it. And if it over fills my skimmer overflows. Doh!!
It's like one big chain reaction one thing turns into another

 

[arvin]

I just found a possible easy solution for you over on RC forums (See Pic below). Just put a TEE at the top of the PVC inside your blue container so the side outlet discharges above your water line. It will slow the flow while filling since some of the water gets sent back into the barrel... but it will definitely break siphon instantly after the pump is turned off. It also won't matter how low the discharge end of your pipe is in the sump.

This is the kind of solution I was actually expecting. But the more I think about it, I realize that this is not going to entirely solve the problem. I have a fuge that sits on top of the sump. What I've decided is to drop the water on the fuge instead of the sump. This way the outlet will be above the blue barrel.

After all these years, I can't believe I did that Noob mistake again! Thank you all for responding...

 

[steamman]

I actually just did the tee thing myself. Just make sure that the pressure from the pump can't push water out of the top. The tee acts like a vacuum breaker. That works just as well as an air gap.