BIOPELLETS & PH Swings

[ecam]

Here is my Tank BIO:
227 gallons of water running 1,000 ML of Warner Marine EcoBak Pellets (tank size calls for 1135 but decided to run less).
i have about 8 fish (5 clowns, 2 tangs (hippo and sail), Mandarin goby, 1 shrimp)
and various SPS that are just surviving not thriving
and 1Clam


Over the last 3-4 weeks my probe has been showing swings from 7.5 to 8.1 overnight and during the night. On occasion the probe will show that my PH is at 8.01 during the middle of the day when normally my PH maxs out at the 8.2 range. Several times the PH has dipped as low as 7.5 during this period.

I just read on reef central the following:

"I believe that one of the largest risk factors when using any form of carbon dosing, bio-pellets included, is a pH down-swing. If these things do suddenly ignite in to action, they can certainly use up a lot of O2 fast, replacing it with CO2 as part of their respiration. You could find that your pH suddenly registers at 7.7 which is really detrimental to your SPS and even LPS... "

Could this be what im experiencing in my tank? Any recommended fixes?

To add to the mystery, I havent dosed or made any water changes in my tank since April 26.
Apr 26 Parameters where (Alk 7.8, Calc 400 and Mag 1400)
May 8 Parameters where (Alk 7.8, Calc 400 and Mag 1200)

Extremely confused and frustrated......



My current plan is to not touch anything and test everyday to see if I can find a problem....


As always.... thanks for your help guys

 

[hcker99]

When was the last time the probe was calibrated? Do you have a spare to try?

 

[NyteGTI]

How long have you had the pellet reactor online? what percentage of recommended amount of pellets are you using and how quickly did you ramp that up?
normally people start with 1/8th what's suggested & bump it up slowly over the next 2-4 months.

 

[ecam]

How long have you had the pellet reactor online? what percentage of recommended amount of pellets are you using and how quickly did you ramp that up?
normally people start with 1/8th what's suggested & bump it up slowly over the next 2-4 months.

The reactor has been online for about 7 weeks. Im running at 67% recommended dosage, I started with 500 ML and and 3 weeks later added 250 ML ( i want to keep it there to keep it from stripping all nutrients).

NYteGTI, thanks for making me write this out... it appears the problems began with the xtra 250....

When was the last time the probe was calibrated? Do you have a spare to try?

I just calibrated the probe again yesterday, and I actually have it hard coded into my reef angel.... I broght an API test kit to validate the reading and they seem to match...

 

[downbeach]

Bacteria activity can cause an increase in CO2, which in turn will decrease your pH. This is one of the reasons it's a good idea to connect the effluent of the reactor directly to your skimmer, the other of course is to more directly skim out the excess bacteria, and related N's and P's. Using kalk in your tank will also utilize some of the CO2, and help elevate your pH.

 

[ecam]

Bacteria activity can cause an increase in CO2, which in turn will decrease your pH. This is one of the reasons it's a good idea to connect the effluent of the reactor directly to your skimmer, the other of course is to more directly skim out the excess bacteria, and related N's and P's. Using kalk in your tank will also utilize some of the CO2, and help elevate your pH.

Thanks for the info Jim, I have the output of the reactor going directly into my skimmer sectiion,

As for Kalk as soon as I figure out my tank intake of Calc and Alk, I was planning on butting (noticed this spelling but im blaming Paul for this Freduian slip... (***less chaps) my dosers online. But I dont want to do it until I understand these swings....

I was reading Randy's article on PH and it dawned on me that over that same time period my familly has begun to spend a lot more time in the living room then b4 which I guess its adding to the CO2 in the room...


I guess the bottom line is.... Is this PH swing a huge concern that requires immeidate correction or is it normal?

 

[downbeach]

Using kalk isn't going to do much to elevate your Ca and Alk, with the numbers you've posted, you have some room to grow. I'd start it right away @ 1 tsp. per gallon of RO/DI, and ultimately go to 2 tsp./gal., the delivery method is up to you either dosing pumps, ATO or gravity drip. As long as you have good gas exchange, through skimming, surface agitation, etc., the CO2 will reach equilibrium. The other most common cause of lower pH, is due to elevated levels of CO2 in the household atmosphere. You could go to a CO2 scrubber, but I think with the use of kalk, that will be unnecessary. As long as your pH doesn't fall below 7.8 in the AM, and your Alk is at least 7dKH, and Ca 400ppm, i wouldn't worry about it.

Are you using/do you have any two part?

 

[ecam]

Are you using/do you have any two part?

I do have the Randy two part that I dose... but due to these swings... I've been hestiant to do anything till i figure it out... Then I was going to but my dosers online to dose the 2 part

 

[Jon Warner]

Here is my Tank BIO:
227 gallons of water running 1,000 ML of Warner Marine EcoBak Pellets (tank size calls for 1135 but decided to run less).
i have about 8 fish (5 clowns, 2 tangs (hippo and sail), Mandarin goby, 1 shrimp)
and various SPS that are just surviving not thriving
and 1Clam


Over the last 3-4 weeks my probe has been showing swings from 7.5 to 8.1 overnight and during the night. On occasion the probe will show that my PH is at 8.01 during the middle of the day when normally my PH maxs out at the 8.2 range. Several times the PH has dipped as low as 7.5 during this period.

I just read on reef central the following:

"I believe that one of the largest risk factors when using any form of carbon dosing, bio-pellets included, is a pH down-swing. If these things do suddenly ignite in to action, they can certainly use up a lot of O2 fast, replacing it with CO2 as part of their respiration. You could find that your pH suddenly registers at 7.7 which is really detrimental to your SPS and even LPS... "

Could this be what im experiencing in my tank? Any recommended fixes?

To add to the mystery, I havent dosed or made any water changes in my tank since April 26.
Apr 26 Parameters where (Alk 7.8, Calc 400 and Mag 1400)
May 8 Parameters where (Alk 7.8, Calc 400 and Mag 1200)

Extremely confused and frustrated......



My current plan is to not touch anything and test everyday to see if I can find a problem....


As always.... thanks for your help guys

This is a really common question...

I will give a little background to clarify. When you're using ecoBAK, it provides a food source and a substrate for bacteria to grow and these species of bacteria consume PO4 and NO3 as they consume the Carbon source in the pellets. So the amount of bacterial activity on your pellets is completely self-regulating. If you have high levels of nutrients, PO4 and NO3 included... there will be a high level of activity on the surface of the pellets. This usually only occurs when people first start using ecoBAK, there will be rapid growth of bacteria and there may be a slight drop in pH from excess CO2. This is why we recommend starting with a partial percentage of the final amount.

After this initial flurry of growth, activity drops and the pellets go into "auto-pilot" mode where the colony of bacteria respond to pollution levels in the water.

So you're concerned about a drop in pH over the last month? It's probably not related to bacterial growth and I would look at the usual causes including ambient air quality and surface agitation of water.


We're going to have a great discussion about ecoBAK at the 2013 NJ Reefers Frag Swap next month, I hope many of you attend.

Jon Warner

 

[kschweer]

Using kalk isn't going to do much to elevate your Ca and Alk, with the numbers you've posted, you have some room to grow. I'd start it right away @ 1 tsp. per gallon of RO/DI, and ultimately go to 2 tsp./gal., the delivery method is up to you either dosing pumps, ATO or gravity drip. As long as you have good gas exchange, through skimming, surface agitation, etc., the CO2 will reach equilibrium. The other most common cause of lower pH, is due to elevated levels of CO2 in the household atmosphere. You could go to a CO2 scrubber, but I think with the use of kalk, that will be unnecessary. As long as your pH doesn't fall below 7.8 in the AM, and your Alk is at least 7dKH, and Ca 400ppm, i wouldn't worry about it.

Are you using/do you have any two part?

Hey Jim. Can you elaborate a bit on how you dose calc? I have been thinking about dosing it via my ATO for a while now but I'm just not too sure about it. Thanks

 

[downbeach]

Hey Jim. Can you elaborate a bit on how you dose calc? I have been thinking about dosing it via my ATO for a while now but I'm just not too sure about it. Thanks

Currently, I mix the kalk one day in a 2 gal. container(2 tsp.gal.), and pour the settled limewater into my ATO container(leaving the residue in the mixing container), the next day. It's important to have lids on both containers. In the past I used a 1 gal. jug, with a hole in the cap, and used a drip acclimator like this with a short piece of air line hose going into the jug, placed it on top of my canopy overnight, and let it drip in the sump.

 

[kschweer]

Thanks Jim. One more question and I will stop derailing Edwin's thread. My ATO is the avast marine one and is hooked up to a small powerhead which sends the water to the sump. It's a small tank (about 45 total gallons) and I evaporate about 5g a week. Should I be concerned about a pH spike on such a small tank the way my ATO is set up?

 

[downbeach]

Thanks Jim. One more question and I will stop derailing Edwin's thread. My ATO is the avast marine one and is hooked up to a small powerhead which sends the water to the sump. It's a small tank (about 45 total gallons) and I evaporate about 5g a week. Should I be concerned about a pH spike on such a small tank the way my ATO is set up?

I would start with 1 tsp/gal. and go from there.

 

[jpelzer]

The avast ATO works by pressure sensor. I have two avast pressure sensors, one for ATO, and one on my skimmate container. The one on the skimmate container uses a bigger tube than the ATO, and I find it is more sensitive.

With the less sensitive pressure switch, your water level needs to change more before the pump comes on or goes off, so pumping kalkwasser a bit scary, especially on such a small tank. Even though on average, you add the same amount of water with either sensor, the smaller one will send it in fewer, larger spurts, so your pH will swing a lot.

I ended up switching to use the larger sensor for ATO, and hacked my skimmate locker to use the smaller ATO sensor.