Bored- so I think I'll start a new experiment......

[concept3]

Tank's been running exceptionally well since I started adding Vodka way back in September. Colors have been the best I have ever had, growth is amazing even under bulbs that are in the higher spectral range than what I used to use (65K's)... BUT like a kid who can't sit down, I need to do something else.

I was thinking of changing my regimen with the Carbon dosing. I was thinking of supplementing it with sugar and vinegar. Sugar in the frozen food that I make, and vinegar in the Kalk that I drip. It's not gonna be an exact proportion (do a search on VSV, or better still, here's a good read: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3#h6 ). A mixed Carbon source that includes Vodka, Vinegar and plain table sugar are ratioed at 4:1:10 respectively (I think it's like 400mL : 100mL : 3tsp). Anyways, I was thinking of finally dosing something else to the tank to see if the addition of bacteria will make a difference, maybe something else, I don't know yet.



So, my choices:

straight up VSV
VSV + Amino acids
VSV + Prodibio biodigest


In preparation, I have also slowly lowered my T5 photoperiod to 6 hours, and the halides to 4, so light spectrums/photoperiod will no longer be a variable like the last experiment (I'm prepping for the summer)

The salinity is currently at 1.026 as usual, and I stopped testing again since everything looks ok for now. Water changes will stay at 20 gallons/2 weeks, as will be the handful of Driveway melt + Epsom salts every week.



what do you guys think? I guess I'll have to photo document it again so the corals' color/growth changes can be recorded.........


Post what experiment you may wanna see, (or recommend me something?)
including all naysayers!

 

[Phyl]

I still want to see the pictures from the mixed cap experiment!!

Looking forward to seeing the photo series. Good luck with the dosing!

 

[ricwilli]

Hey Merv.... Don't know why you would want to change something that is working for you, but anyway. I took a look at the link you posted and it looks like a good read. I just printed it out but haven't had a chance to read it (need time). Since I have not read the article on TOC, I thought all carbon source was the same other than being solid or liquid state? Does each carbon source (Vodka, Sugar, Vinegar) do something different?

 

[concept3]

I still want to see the pictures from the mixed cap experiment!!

I had the caps placed lower in the tank and was a little shaded since I needed the floor space for frags. They browned out a bit, but have been moved up and is back on track for growth and color. WIll post as soon as they start growing into each other. It's amazing how lack of light hinders growth tremendously.

Hey Merv.... Don't know why you would want to change something that is working for you, but anyway. I took a look at the link you posted and it looks like a good read. I just printed it out but haven't had a chance to read it (need time). Since I have not read the article on TOC, I thought all carbon source was the same other than being solid or liquid state? Does each carbon source (Vodka, Sugar, Vinegar) do something different?

Well, some people have noticed an increase in red cyano with just vodka, some have experienced small tufts of nuisance hair algae with just vinegar, and some have noticed white milky strands with just sugar (in no particular order, and I may have butchered the algae=carbon a bit). By using the three together, it has been documented that all/most of the nuisance stuff is eliminated. I have none of the nuisance stuff, but valonia pops up every now and then in the tank. Not nuisance by any means, but it's a little weird answering visiting folk going, "Cool grape coral. What is that?"

I was thinking of adding Prodibio to document what it really does, what effects they have, why the people who rave about it rave about it so much but won't divulge how and/or why. It's like the "old" Zeo users, everything's blanketed in secrecy (or maybe they just don't care enough to explain).

We'll see. Waiting on a few more posts- still contemplating on what to do.

 

[ham]

hey merv IF IT AINT BROKE DONT FIX IT !!!! dude your tank looks great grouth and coloring amazing but i know you looking to get even better from your tank. go slow but i dont need to tell you that. keep us posted good luck

 

[blange3]

So for those of you who don't know it, Merv has a degree in Marine Biology and is one of the long time reefers that like to try new things to see what else can be learned.

Go for it Merv! There is a line of thought taught in continuos improvement methodologies that says if it ain't broke, break it and make it better!

 

[jonathan.]

Why wouldn't you just do Aminos with Prodibio as well as the VSV? I thought that Prodibio biodigest was just a bacterial supplementation.

I'd do all 3 of them.

It's basically running a zeo system at that point without the rocks.

 

[JRWOHLER]

I would try one additive at a time. The bacteria supplement theoretically should help eliminate the algae right as it would make your "bacterial filter" more efficient? Look forward to seeing your results, not that improving is really necessary .

 

[jimroth]

I have been dosing VSV and, for the most part, I like the results. I have experienced a huge increase in cyano, which I thought was caused by the vinegar (I used to have a tank which got vinegar + kalkwasser, and it had a real bad cyano problem.) Did you say some people do only vodka and have cyano issues?

My VSV formula is 25ml vodka, 25ml vinegar, 1 Tbs sugar.

 

[ricwilli]

Go for it Merv! There is a line of thought taught in continuos improvement methodologies that says if it ain't broke, break it and make it better!

So Bill, does this mean you are going to break your VHO's and start using T5's ;D

Jim, I'm not 100% sure but I don't think dosing any kind of carbon source will eliminate cyno. You will need more flow and more water changes. I'm dosing Brightwell products and I was reaching ULN until I accidentally bumped into the automatic food feeder and opened the latch more than it was suppose to be opened. Well, every time the feeder fed the fish (4 times a day) it dumped lots and lots of pellets in the tank. I noticed it the next day and all the pellets were everywhere and in the rocks. I tried to siphon as much as I could and did water changes. At one point I was cleaning the glass once every two weeks, now I have to clean it every two days. I will have to start all over again.

 

[blange3]

Go for it Merv! There is a line of thought taught in continuos improvement methodologies that says if it ain't broke, break it and make it better!

So Bill, does this mean you are going to break your VHO's and start using T5's ;D

Touche!

I have experimented with T5's on my frag/QT tank. Wasn't impressed.

But I will admit I'm thinking of sharing some of my vodka with the tank and maybe amino acids.

I remember in the early days of local reefing John at Underwater World always insisted that you needed Seachem ReefPlus as your main supplement.

 

[concept3]

So for those of you who don't know it, Merv has a degree in Marine Biology and is one of the long time reefers that like to try new things to see what else can be learned.

Bill, degrees are bits of paper that simply say that one has been provided with a formal educational background on the processes of the basic stuff. Experimentation, application and results are what really matters, and I'm not afraid to do so. Most of what I have learned come from fellow reefkeepers, things that I was able to learn from them, ask them, from trial and error, how to make things better, share with them, and learn through their experiences while I build mine. Thanks for pointing that out though, at least I know what I went to school for didn't go to waste monsignor Deacon!

Why wouldn't you just do Aminos with Prodibio as well as the VSV? I thought that Prodibio biodigest was just a bacterial supplementation.

I am trying to find a cheap working alternative to using pricey "what's cool" right now regimens. There are a ton of reefers out there who found their ways of setting up successful captive reefs for years without using the latest and greatest, I want to find my happy medium.

Prodibio biodigest is a bacterial supplement yes, supposedly to contain the "correct" proportion of bacteria for a reef environment. However, due to the differences in organic composition in all our different tanks, how can one guarantee that the different strains contained within will survive in their desired proportions? If these bacterial strains can be added to a tank (and I assume they occur naturally within our rocks, water column and substrate) in the right proportions, then by adding their food, one should be able to culture and keep them at that level right? (Question to myself: why the need to keep adding more vials every week or so? is it just a gimmick to get us hooked to that regimen?)

Amino acids mainly come from plankton in the water column in the wild. Zooxanthellae also produce a small amount of amino acids. Corals utilize these energy sources and help them grow faster, larger and with better coloration. By adding amino acids in the tank, you create a nice soup of nutrients that the corals can utilize, hence the desired coloration of our corals. Since these are nutrients, they can get skimmed out as well, so the recommended procedure is to shut off the skimmer and pumps within the tank. I'm sure there is some kind of correlation between bacterial mass and amino acids in the tank, and I really want to try the two out separately from each other. I will eventually do all three at one point or another. My curiosity on "what happens if I do this by itself" VS "what happens if I dump it all in as recommended" keeps repeating in my noggin.

I would try one additive at a time. The bacteria supplement theoretically should help eliminate the algae right as it would make your "bacterial filter" more efficient? Look forward to seeing your results, not that improving is really necessary .

Yes, the bacterial supplement should theoretically out compete undesirable algae. One can't improve unless proven better right?

I have been dosing VSV and, for the most part, I like the results. I have experienced a huge increase in cyano, which I thought was caused by the vinegar (I used to have a tank which got vinegar + kalkwasser, and it had a real bad cyano problem.) Did you say some people do only vodka and have cyano issues?

My VSV formula is 25ml vodka, 25ml vinegar, 1 Tbs sugar.

I just got a Pm from a fellow reefer about a similar cyano issue, but the cyano came about when the vodka dosages were stopped. I think you may actually need to increase the amount of ethanol you are placing in the tank, I believe the correct mixtures from what I read are 200ml ethanol (Vodka) to 50ml acetate (white vinegar) to 1.5 TSP of white sugar. Adding to the post above, I am wondering now if the introduction of 1 vial of the prodibio biodigest will make a difference in jump starting the right bacterial population with the addition of the vsv? I wonder if 1 vial is all that it needs given we are able to feed and maintain the population with the vsv dosing....

as I type, I am slowly leaning over to the VSV+bacterial route, I have plans on going to Hidden Reef later (my first trip) after my GF gets off work (I'm in Philly right now). I may just pick up a bottle of the Aminos and the biodigest to have. I have the rest of the vsv stuff at home in my pantry!

 

[JRWOHLER]

Prodibio biodigest is a bacterial supplement yes, supposedly to contain the "correct" proportion of bacteria for a reef environment.  However, due to the differences in organic composition in all our different tanks, how can one guarantee that the different strains contained within will survive in their desired proportions?  If these bacterial strains can be added to a tank (and I assume they occur naturally within our rocks, water column and substrate) in the right proportions, then by adding their food, one should be able to culture and keep them at that level right?   Question to myself:  why the need to keep adding more vials every week or so?  is it just a gimmick to get us hooked to that regimen?)[

I wondered the same thing myself especially that last part.  I have seen a couple folks around who use natural sea water, right from Atlantic, and some claim a stronger base of bacterial filtration in their tanks.  Certainly could be true. What are your thoughts on that? Have you used local sand or SW?

 

[concept3]

I wondered the same thing myself especially that last part. I have seen a couple folks around who use natural sea water, right from Atlantic, and some claim a stronger base of bacterial filtration in their tanks. Certainly could be true. What are your thoughts on that? Have you used local sand or SW?

No I have not, a friend who was in the hobby did this for a little while and I noticed that his corals were pigmented better than when I had them in my tank, I think I attributed them to the lighting I was using, but the more I think about it now, it makes a little more sense. He had fresh bacteria in his tank and my tank was probably going through a mini-'old tank' syndrome.

 

[ham]

hey MERV'S in phila mmmm. if your MISSING anything from your tank it wasnt me !!!!

 

[concept3]

hey MERV'S in phila mmmm. if your MISSING anything from your tank it wasnt me !!!!

lol. It wouldn't be the first time something went missing!

 

[concept3]

okay, so I got back from The Hidden reef and a little diamond in the rough store called The Fish Factory next to a fancy club



From the hidden reef, I picked up a 6 pack ampoule of Prodibio biodigest (17.99), Brightwell's CoralAmino (125 mL for 21.99) and a pincushion Urchin for 8.99 The store was laid out nicely, was very very clean, the staff were super nice and they had a very good selection of both supplies and equipment. Great livestock selection too. A nice display tank would have been nice to see though. The cleanliness of the store really made the experience well worth it, followed by the softies and then the fish. Not too many sticks in the place, but then again, it could have been the wrong day of the week. A few montipora pieces, the occasional "blue stag" and hydnophoras, nothing that stuck out to make me drool and beg to take home. I would have liked to see frags for sale, most were aquacultured pieces from the Pacific as they were all mounted on large concrete plugs, they only had 8 ORA pieces.

on the way home, we stopped by The Fish factory since it was only 4 minutes from Hidden Reef (looks small outside, but gets bigger inside)and picked up a MaxiJet Eco Mod (they happened to have it, so I bought one, 16.41) and a Pencil Urchin for 11.99 (a bit much, but I HAD to get something)... I don't know if this store was new or what not, but they had a TON of stuff everywhere, a lot of used items were lying around and some were for sale, it also looked like they were just getting started in the business; that could be my first impression. If you could get over the fact that it was a little disorganized inside and with most items not priced, they actually had a decent amount of stuff crammed in a small area. They even had the Prodibio stuff, but it took me a while to find it. It was hidden behind a piece of acrylic on the counter, but I had already bought a set. They had a crosshatch trigger for 59, but I wasn't going home tonite.

When I get back home tomorrow after work, I'm gonna try and catch my longspine urchin and replace him with the two I just got since they are smaller; I'm a little tired of my urchin's spines knocking everything around. The Urchin's now about 12 inches in diameter, maybe more....

The dosing may start as soon as Sunday, still unsure of what to dose.... for now.