Phil, thank you so much for sharing this information with all of us. Keep in mind that even if your losses may feel high, every fish you raise successfully is one less being taken out of the ocean. You are not only learning from your losses, but by sharing what you have learned, you are helping all of us who hope to raise baby clowns from our own pairs one day. Those babies look great, keep up the good work- and it is good work.
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Clownfish Log
- Thread starter Hawkeye
- Start date
my pleasure. It's hard to remember everything though - you get tired and then don't even get online for a day or two! lol.
I use RODI water though I probably could get away with just RO water. never though of that. I use Instant Ocean salt as I don't see the point of using anything better.
Here's my routine (days 1 thru 5):
Batch 3
AM: check for dead fry/fish. Remove immediately. Use turkey baster to siphon out detritus. Harvest Rotifers. Add 4 drops rotifier diet to rotifers culture. Take harvested rotifiers and feed rotifers to fry tank. Add a few drops of rotifer diet to fry tank to get the greenish tint and provide sustance to rotifers that are not eaten immediately.
PM: Same as above but I add a 5~10% water change. The most important is making sure the temp and sg is the same otherwise you shock the fry. The sg can be a few marks lower. Higher sg should be used if ammonia is out of control. Supposedly a higher sg is less stressful on the fry if ammonia is a problem.
days 6 and on so far:
Same as above, except I now set up a brine shrimp culture in the PM when I get back from work, and I harvest the next morning a small batch - feed. Then when I get back from work, I harvest all of it - into the fry tank (also a bunch is given to the older fry from batches 1 and 2). Restart the culture for harvesting the next day.
I no longer feed baby brine as the main diet for the first batch of clowns. They are now approaching 45 days in age and eat cyclopeeze wafers as their primary diet. Batch 2 is now getting some cyclops to get them acclimated to eating dry food.
I use RODI water though I probably could get away with just RO water. never though of that. I use Instant Ocean salt as I don't see the point of using anything better.
Here's my routine (days 1 thru 5):
Batch 3
AM: check for dead fry/fish. Remove immediately. Use turkey baster to siphon out detritus. Harvest Rotifers. Add 4 drops rotifier diet to rotifers culture. Take harvested rotifiers and feed rotifers to fry tank. Add a few drops of rotifer diet to fry tank to get the greenish tint and provide sustance to rotifers that are not eaten immediately.
PM: Same as above but I add a 5~10% water change. The most important is making sure the temp and sg is the same otherwise you shock the fry. The sg can be a few marks lower. Higher sg should be used if ammonia is out of control. Supposedly a higher sg is less stressful on the fry if ammonia is a problem.
days 6 and on so far:
Same as above, except I now set up a brine shrimp culture in the PM when I get back from work, and I harvest the next morning a small batch - feed. Then when I get back from work, I harvest all of it - into the fry tank (also a bunch is given to the older fry from batches 1 and 2). Restart the culture for harvesting the next day.
I no longer feed baby brine as the main diet for the first batch of clowns. They are now approaching 45 days in age and eat cyclopeeze wafers as their primary diet. Batch 2 is now getting some cyclops to get them acclimated to eating dry food.
Are you rinsing the brine shrimp before feeding them to the tanks?
panmanmatt said:
I did not previously for batches 1 and 2. Dunno why but despite not rinsing they were ok.
I started rinsing batch 3. I don't use the net anymore, I use the rotifer sieve and place the entire sieve in a small container of asw (mixed overnight,aerated,temp acclimated). Then i dose the bbs into the fry tank.
Well - not exactly, prior to feeding I get a small hose and siphon out whatever detritus there is on the bottom. If i'm unlucky - also a dead fry or two. Lately the ones I've siphoned out are all still silver i color - never made it to meta. The bulk of the fry left are turning black (pre meta).
My reason for asking was that the unrinsed brine could be adding to the ammonia levels. Brine shrimp water is high in ammonia and by transferring the large amounts of brine you are also transferring some ammonia. With multiple feedings a day it could cause ammonia to show in the tank.
You're doing great so far. Keep up the good work.
You're doing great so far. Keep up the good work.
thanks - the problem i noticed is that the fry are not always in the water column - sometimes they stick to the glass sides - as if they are afraid of something in the water. Adding greenwater/phyto helped this problem a lot - but I still had a few.
Today I noticed another two dead. Ammonia is at 0.05 to 0.02ppm. I did a small 10% water change - siphoned the bottom.
I made way too many brine shrimp today. Too small for the display. I hate wasting stuff but oh well. Same goes for the rotifers - just harvesting and dumping. Might try feeding the display - but I just feel like the stuff feeds the vermetid snails.
Today I noticed another two dead. Ammonia is at 0.05 to 0.02ppm. I did a small 10% water change - siphoned the bottom.
I made way too many brine shrimp today. Too small for the display. I hate wasting stuff but oh well. Same goes for the rotifers - just harvesting and dumping. Might try feeding the display - but I just feel like the stuff feeds the vermetid snails.
Don't waste the brine shrimp. You can put them in some new saltwater in a plastic bottle and stick them in the fridge. They will keep for up to a week that way. My suggestion would be to enrich them for a few hours before putting them in the fridge. The cold will slow them down but not kill them. When you need them, just rinse them under some fw and they are ready to feed out.
The only issue with keeping them in the bucket is tat they will continue to grow and develop and may become too large for the clown larvae to eat. Since I'm not sure how large of food you are feeding them it may not be an issue. Putting them in the fridge will pretty much keep them at the size they are now.
panmanmatt said:
yep - that's what I wanted - to grow them out for the display fish. I purposely place a few day old brine shrimp in the rotifer container. WIlkerson mentions that brine are a good canary indicator in the rotifer culture. If the brine is living/growing - then the rotifers are going fine. Obviously I avoid taking the brine out when harvesting the rotifers - but I noticed it doesn't take long for the brine to mature into a full size adult. Adult brine are bigger than the clownfish fry...lol.
Anyways I've already re-started another culture for bbs. But going forward I'll consider the bottle/frig trick. I try my hardest not to clutter up the fridge with fish stuff. It's a losing battle.
Phil, this is a fantastic progress report log you have going here. I know what you mean by being so busy you forget things after a couple days, so try to keep in the habit of recording everything here as soon as and as often as you can. I realize you have plenty to keep you busy besides this log, but this log will be a great reference tool for future attempts.
I can imagine things get hectic when trying to raise clownfish from eggs, especially when things go wrong. This can make you mix up some details if you don't write things down ASAP. So, even if you have to just scribble some notes on a note pad... make sure you do that to keep your info accurate.
That said, I commend you for your efforts and success so far! Not only are you helping with the conservation of clownfish, but you are educating the rest of us at the same time. And... as a bonus, others are responding with ideas that may help you succeed. Your log might also inspire a few more to follow in your footsteps and that's certainly a good thing.
One thought I had when reading through your posts and notes... you said "Supposedly a higher sg is less stressful on the fry if ammonia is a problem." If that's the case, then it might be a good idea to just maintain a slightly higher sg from the get-go, no? Would there be any negatives to having a .01 or .02 higher sg then your original target range?
And then I had a personal thought. Would it help at all to add a small ball of chaeto to the fry tank? You had thought about adding some LR, but someone mentioned the LR could damage your fry. Chaeto would be much more forgiving if your fry bump into it though. Or would the chaeto just give your food a place to hide from you fry? Just a thought. It's always been my belief that any idea, even a bad one can spark a better one out of someone that looks at the problem from a different angle. You know what they say about throwing enough crap on the wall... some of it will stick! ;D
Your pics are great and I agree that the baby clowns are cuter than puppies.
And to comment on your last post. I hear you there brother. I get the evil eye for just putting some black worms in our fridge.
I can imagine things get hectic when trying to raise clownfish from eggs, especially when things go wrong. This can make you mix up some details if you don't write things down ASAP. So, even if you have to just scribble some notes on a note pad... make sure you do that to keep your info accurate.
That said, I commend you for your efforts and success so far! Not only are you helping with the conservation of clownfish, but you are educating the rest of us at the same time. And... as a bonus, others are responding with ideas that may help you succeed. Your log might also inspire a few more to follow in your footsteps and that's certainly a good thing.
One thought I had when reading through your posts and notes... you said "Supposedly a higher sg is less stressful on the fry if ammonia is a problem." If that's the case, then it might be a good idea to just maintain a slightly higher sg from the get-go, no? Would there be any negatives to having a .01 or .02 higher sg then your original target range?
And then I had a personal thought. Would it help at all to add a small ball of chaeto to the fry tank? You had thought about adding some LR, but someone mentioned the LR could damage your fry. Chaeto would be much more forgiving if your fry bump into it though. Or would the chaeto just give your food a place to hide from you fry? Just a thought. It's always been my belief that any idea, even a bad one can spark a better one out of someone that looks at the problem from a different angle. You know what they say about throwing enough crap on the wall... some of it will stick! ;D
Your pics are great and I agree that the baby clowns are cuter than puppies.
And to comment on your last post. I hear you there brother. I get the evil eye for just putting some black worms in our fridge.
thanks a lot george.
I think generally speaking a lower SG offers an easier time for fish to breath in general. My physics is rusty but the pressure from osmosis is less on the fish when SG is low. Raising the SG (due to ammonia) should be a trick used when you are lazy/slacking on the water changes.
For example - in the first batch I was really lazy and sometimes used the amquel stuff to de-toxify ammonia - especially as it went north of 0.05 ppm (and headed to the "blue zone" on the ammonia badge).
This time around I was really much more attentive to changing the water daily. So I haven't had to tinker with the SG too much. Just a steady 1.025.
In reference to the other post about meta. Pre-meta, think of the clownfish as constantly in the water column curling it's tail and launching itself in short bursts at the baby brine. During meta - suddenly they are no longer eating in the water column - but rather descend to the bottom of the tank. Mind you all the fish prior to this that "descended" to the bottom were dead. So initially it's quite alarming to see your 12 day old clownfish all drop to the bottom almost motionless. That's the other crazy thing - they are almost "dead" like motionless. I think the stress from metamorphosis just forces them to sit on the bottom. I tried to take some pics - but all I get is a black spot with lots of red bbs floating about.
Pre-meta - the clownfish are black with silver stomachs.
During Meta the body fills out to the more characteristic squat like look of a clownfish and a single white stripe slowly develops on the head. This is applicable to percs. I believe other clownfish species develop the stripes in a different order.
The cheato is a nother good idea - possibly worth serious consideration. I just wasn't sure about contaminating the fry tanks with something from the display. I guess I could dump the cheato in a bucket of RO water to flush out any possible nasties. Just not sure if like a copepod was in there and the fry tried to eat it - would it be too big? (like a 2 day old brine shrimp is too big?) Cheato for post-meta fish sounds like a plan since by then they are far bigger and able to handle themselves better.
I think generally speaking a lower SG offers an easier time for fish to breath in general. My physics is rusty but the pressure from osmosis is less on the fish when SG is low. Raising the SG (due to ammonia) should be a trick used when you are lazy/slacking on the water changes.
For example - in the first batch I was really lazy and sometimes used the amquel stuff to de-toxify ammonia - especially as it went north of 0.05 ppm (and headed to the "blue zone" on the ammonia badge).
This time around I was really much more attentive to changing the water daily. So I haven't had to tinker with the SG too much. Just a steady 1.025.
In reference to the other post about meta. Pre-meta, think of the clownfish as constantly in the water column curling it's tail and launching itself in short bursts at the baby brine. During meta - suddenly they are no longer eating in the water column - but rather descend to the bottom of the tank. Mind you all the fish prior to this that "descended" to the bottom were dead. So initially it's quite alarming to see your 12 day old clownfish all drop to the bottom almost motionless. That's the other crazy thing - they are almost "dead" like motionless. I think the stress from metamorphosis just forces them to sit on the bottom. I tried to take some pics - but all I get is a black spot with lots of red bbs floating about.
Pre-meta - the clownfish are black with silver stomachs.
During Meta the body fills out to the more characteristic squat like look of a clownfish and a single white stripe slowly develops on the head. This is applicable to percs. I believe other clownfish species develop the stripes in a different order.
The cheato is a nother good idea - possibly worth serious consideration. I just wasn't sure about contaminating the fry tanks with something from the display. I guess I could dump the cheato in a bucket of RO water to flush out any possible nasties. Just not sure if like a copepod was in there and the fry tried to eat it - would it be too big? (like a 2 day old brine shrimp is too big?) Cheato for post-meta fish sounds like a plan since by then they are far bigger and able to handle themselves better.
Brine take about 4 weeks to reach adult size. The older the brine the shorter the time needed to enrich them.
If you don't already have it, may I suggest you get a copy of the Plankton Culture Manual by Frank Hoff & T. Snell. It is an invaluable tool that has a ton of information. I had a copy, but lent it out and can't remember who it was too so I can get it back, otherwise you'd be welcome to borrow it.
Here is 1 place you can get it, along with any phytos or enrichments you may need/want.
http://www.seahorsesource.com/cgi-bin/shop/detail.cgi?id=900101
If you don't already have it, may I suggest you get a copy of the Plankton Culture Manual by Frank Hoff & T. Snell. It is an invaluable tool that has a ton of information. I had a copy, but lent it out and can't remember who it was too so I can get it back, otherwise you'd be welcome to borrow it.
Here is 1 place you can get it, along with any phytos or enrichments you may need/want.
http://www.seahorsesource.com/cgi-bin/shop/detail.cgi?id=900101
That's why all of my suggestions are questions, haha. I just thought that if the higher sg helped when there is ammonia... and you are constantly battling ammonia, then why not just keep it slightly higher. But if that affects the breathing ability, then maybe it's not such a good idea afterall.
I also didn't mean for it to be an alternative to keeping the ammonia down. I just thought that it might help a few more fry make it through that stress from ammonia.
Thanks for the details on the meta cycle. That gave me a much better picture in my mind of what happens.
If you do decide to add the chaeto, make sure you search through it really well. I've found a sally lightfoot in mine once when flipping it over... don't want something like that to make it to the fry tank. Yea, I would just take a small piece and rinse/clean it pretty good first. That stuff grows pretty fast when there is phospates and nitrates to feed it. Not sure if there are any traces of that in your fry tank though.
I also didn't mean for it to be an alternative to keeping the ammonia down. I just thought that it might help a few more fry make it through that stress from ammonia.
Thanks for the details on the meta cycle. That gave me a much better picture in my mind of what happens.
If you do decide to add the chaeto, make sure you search through it really well. I've found a sally lightfoot in mine once when flipping it over... don't want something like that to make it to the fry tank.
Yea, I would just take a small piece and rinse/clean it pretty good first. That stuff grows pretty fast when there is phospates and nitrates to feed it. Not sure if there are any traces of that in your fry tank though.there's probably traces of nitrate...never bothered to measure since I basically do daily water changes.
Mind you if i had a real breeding system - i'd have a skimmer and lr etc in a sump somwhere.
I don't think there's any phosphate since i've just been feeding live food.
Here's a pic of the first batch - frag disc on the left for scale:
Mind you if i had a real breeding system - i'd have a skimmer and lr etc in a sump somwhere.
I don't think there's any phosphate since i've just been feeding live food.
Here's a pic of the first batch - frag disc on the left for scale:
