Coral Beauty and Flame Angel

[Carlo]

I think you're missing the point blange3.

You can have multiple angels in a tank but sometimes specific fish don't get along even though the general thought is that the species do work. This is the case with the Coral Angel and Hawaiin Flame. Generally they will get along but not always.

If I were to ask the Rep if these two fish will get along together and he says YES, but I have doubts then I can tell him that and ALSO tell him if he shows me they will get along together and feed then I'll take both of them. So he/she can choose to NOT sell me the fish or find 2 that do get along and make 2 sales. IMHO as the customer it's a reasonable request and I wouldn't have a problem telling the store Rep that too.

Moving fish a few feet doesn't stress them out that much. The whole "fish stress" thing is way overrated. If you've ever seen the things these fish go through to get to the store you wouldn't be worried about moving a fish from one tank to another. I myself would much rather subject them to the instore test then doing so at home to only have to take one or both back to the store.

I haven't really seen any local stores with different filtration systems running for the marine fish. Generally speaking they try and keep all the fish running on one system on purpose so that maintenance is easier. Normally the last thing they want to do is check a bunch of different systems and have multiple topoffs, etc. With that said many/most stores do run different systems for fish versus corals.

Sometimes you can get lucky and the store will have both of these fish already together in the same 20L tank. Aquarium Center often does this with these two types of angels.

Now don't get me wrong, if the store is packed or very busy, I'm not going to ask them to do this for me. I'll wait on the fish and try later.

Honestly if truth be told I've only done this a couple of times. The last time I did this was with a pair of Yellow Striped Maroon Clowns and a pair of Clarkii Clowns. Both are very aggressive and the general rule is not to mix them but I had a hunch I'd get away with it and when I asked the store (Allquatics) they obliged and I ended up with 4 new fish.

One thing is for sure. When the store knows you have and do spend thousands with them they will generally try and be as friendly/helpful as possible.

Carlo

PS oh, the fish test to see if it will nip at corals IMHO is not going to happen. This to me is unreasonable. It's not the same to put a couple of fish in a 20g tank where they are easy to capture compared to putting a fish in a reef tank which is going to be much larger and probably not very easy to capture the fish after/during the test.

Being "reasonable" is key I believe.

 

[Subliminal]

Well, I guess it's good to have ethics, but if someone has what i want for sale, at a price i'm willing to pay, then i'll buy it. May not go back there, but it's certainly not the fish's fault the store owner sucks.

 

[blange3]

I think you're missing the point blange3.

Nope, not missing the point at all. I just think it is not a reasonable request.

I don't even think it is a reasonable test.

The way most LFS are setup you would be putting two angels in a tank between 10 and 20 gallons in size with little or no hiding space or chance to establish territories, for 15 or 20 minutes, and from that you will try to determine what their behavior will be in a 100+ gallon tank with live rock and hopefully plenty of hiding spaces.

And I do have a pretty good idea of what the animals go through before they arrive. I was in the business many moons ago. I still think it is unnecessary stress.

A customer is always entitled to make a request. And yes, many vendors will do things for folks who spend thousands of dollars, that they may not do routinely. But, that doesn't mean it's the best thing for the livestock.

 

[Phyl]

Based on what we saw at The Hidden Reef, they have one rock system and 2-3 SW fish systems (I could probably tell you by the count of the vats in the basement from my photos). Aquatic Obsessions has several separate fish systems (each pairing of 2 columns makes up one fish system). Those are just the two that I know of...

 

[Treadingwater]

I would take a good guess that Trop also has more then one system for their fish. In fact, I would guess that more stores run multiple systems then don't since one serious breakout would infect every fish in the system and no good buisness owner is going to risk their whole inventory like that. The only store that I know of that runs one system is Animals and Things and you would never, ever, catch me buying a fish from there.

 

[Subliminal]

The place by my house does that too. One system, with lots of sand in each tank, and plenty of ich to go around the whole system. Learned that AFTER it transfered to my ol' 55g.

 

[AnDom1]

Jack's point is well taken. If the customer knows that the fish are often incompatible, he/she should assume the risk and not the store owner. And, if the shop pushes customers to buy fish that can be aggressive to each other without telling them, then that shop should be avoided.

Also, I know of several shops both old (20-30+ years) and new (about 1 yr.) that deliberately do not run a SINGLE central system because they do not want to risk exposing all of their fish to the inadvertent outbreak of disease. They view this as being more
acceptable than the ease of maintaining a single system.

Furthermore, in virtually all of the shops with single systems I've been in, the owners/managers told me they are continuously run with theraputic levels of copper present which means that the longer a fish is in inventory, the longer it is exposed to the toxic metal. Another risk some shop owners are unwilling to take.

While many hobbyists run 2,4 or 6 fish only tanks with a single system, this is quite different than a shop doing it. The shop holds a much greater variety of fish with different tolerances for disease to say nothing of the significantly higher investment involved.

Dom

 

[JohnS_323]

The way most LFS are setup you would be putting two angels in a tank between 10 and 20 gallons in size with little or no hiding space or chance to establish territories, for 15 or 20 minutes, and from that you will try to determine what their behavior will be in a 100+ gallon tank with live rock and hopefully plenty of hiding spaces.

I think this is a really good point, too. I would never assume that a few minutes is a holding tank would in anyway be indicative of the behavior you'd see in a display tank over time. While there may not be as much stress as one would think, the fish still have to be rattled enough to kind of find neutral corners and figure out what's going on. I think it would take a good bit of time for them to settle in and then start to establish dominance.

 

[MikeNapoli]

Just wanted to say sorry and that I didn't mean to start this war of opinions.

I'll let you guys know how it works out ... I'm starting the changeover on Saturday and I'll be finish by Monday or Tuesday and i'll be buying the fish that next week.

Also I called a couple of places and one said they would like to host an Angelfish Battle Royal in a display tank and we can put in on pay-per-view or maybe a webcam. haha.

 

[blange3]

Just wanted to say sorry and that I didn't mean to start this war of opinions.

No need to apologize Mike, it's not a battle, just an exchange of opinions.

Some other advice if I may. Angels fair better in established tanks with plenty of stuff to graze on the live rocks. I would recommend you let the tank settle for more than a week before you add more fish. Better yet, do you have an established QT tank with live rock?

 

[AnDom1]

There you go Mike...a WWF type "Battle Of The Angels" LOL

Agree with Bill though, it's good to exchange ideas and experiences.

Dom

 

[Carlo]

Well this sure turned into much more then originally intended.

The "test" I mentioned with the 2 fish in the same tank is actually way better then you would imagine. If they go at it right from the start you WILL PROBABLY be in for trouble in your tank. Generally speaking if they are in the same tank for 5-10 minutes and don't show aggression towards each other especially when fed then they will most likely be way better in your tank which will have plenty of hiding places, etc... It's not a sure thing (nothing is) but it can show you quickly if one is a bully from the start.

I probably wasn't clear on the equipment thing. I didn't mean to say a store will have every single fish tank connected together. What I meant was that each tank isn't going to have it's own filtration. Some stores may only run a couple rows of tanks on a system and maybe have 3 or 4 total systems if it's a real large store. I can say for a fact a couple of the largest stores in the area are ONE SYSTEM for marine fish.

BUT

From talking and consulting with many owners of systems I can tell you preventing decease outbreaks is not really a proactive measure on the part of the store with their SETUPS and isn't the reason for multiple systems. Most stores don't worry about this because they get fish from distributors, do a quick acclimation and into the tanks they go. Each tank has virtually the same chance of ich outbreaks as any other tank. Most of the fish imported to stores carry ich. Store owners expect it and it's part of doing business. One day the tank could hold clowns while the next day it has tangs. To combat this stores:

Run Copper
Run Formalin
Run Formaldehyde
Run Copper & Formalin
Run tanks in Hypo salinity (saves on salt costs too)
Run a little bit of Meth blue in the tanks (not usual however)

Very, very few stores would get any type of benefit from running multiple systems from a decease standpoint since the rate of import of parasites is the virtually the same for each tank regardless of their setup. It's not like they do QT first. They combat the issue with meds, UV & Ozone. They may run separate systems because it's cheaper. Once you get to a certain size and amount of tanks you hit plumbing problems. You can only get certain size pumps within reason, certain size filter boxes, protein skimmers etc. It makes the design overall easier when using off the shelf equipment without having to use specialized (made to order) equipment. Face it, if something fails the store wants to be able to take something off the shelf and get things working again.

It's of course good to only loose 1/4 of your inventory in the case of serious failure of equipment compared to the whole store but it's not done for decease purposes usually.

BTW, some of the stores mentioned are one MARINE FISH system and all water is shared. Some of the equipment you guys see is for fresh water, brackish, corals, inverts, etc...

I've said what I wanted to say and simply tried to give a tip before the topic changed. I don't want to get into a debate over store setups as that wasn't the purpose of my original post. I know intimately how many of the local stores are setup and if you want to think otherwise then this is fine by me. I don't mean for this to sound harsh but when it doesn't make a difference either way & when you know for a fact how many of the stores are setup then there isn't a point in discussing it. I certainly don't want to comment on any particular store as it's not my place. I certainly don't want to give an impression of a store doing something wrong when there really isn't a "wrong" way per say when fish come and go, they're just different. If an owner want to comment then that's up to them.

Carlo

 

[Carlo]

A couple of posts made it through while I was typing.

After just reading my post I don't like the "tone" of it but instead of trying to edit it I'll just apologise here for the tone. I didn't want it to sound the way it did, so forgive me.

If you feel comfortable asking a store to move a couple fish together and think it may "help" you decide then I say "go for it". If you don't think it will help or don't think you have the right to ask then don't. Probably worst case is the store will refuse.

We all have different things we try and some may be better then others. This "test" may not seem good to you so just "pass" on the "tip" and mark it up and maybe not so good an idea for you.

But please don't outright criticize an idea of someone else's unless it's just plain dangerous or going to cause a major problem or something for the person's tank or someone following the "tip". In that case criticize away.

Remember there are lots of ways to accomplish something and many people do things differently. We come here to share ideas, so let's keep it friendly!

Carlo

 

[MikeNapoli]

Actually the changeover is happening pretty quick ... the rock has been in my tank for about 5 months and some of the rock I got from Nikola has been in his system for 2 years and the rock I got from Subliminal was covered .. even has patches of sponge on them.... I'm using all the same sand and I'm gonna try and save alot of the water, so I hope this means the tank will be ok for new fish.

Also the rock I got from NJRC members has been mixed together in a rubbermaid container for almost a week. The water doesn't smell and there are Mexican Turbo snails living in the rubbermaid container with them and a powerhead.

Does this still sound like I should wait? Not that I don't want to wait but Will has a Flame and Coral Beauty that are roughly the same size and I would like to get both of those.

 

[Carlo]

It sounds like you're ready. If the rubbermaid rock was going to be a problem the snails would probably be dead.

If you want to be sure:
How many pounds roughly of rock do you have in the tank currently?
How much rock do you have in the rubbermaid?

What is the nitrate reading of both the tank and the rubbermaid?
When was the last time you did a water change on either of them?
Are you feeding either "tank" any food at all to sustain the bacteria?

Carlo

 

[AnDom1]

Looks promising Mike...Set it up, wait a few days as Bill suggests, then test for key parameters (ammonia, nitrite & nitrate). If they test OK, pick up the fish, acclimate them at the same time but separately, then when done put them in at the same time at opposite ends of the tank. Chances are with both fish adjusting to the new tank they won't bother each other especially since there are lots of hiding places.By next weekend, they should be swimming around in your new setup.

Good Luck

Dom

 

[JohnS_323]

I agree with Dom's approach. The only thing I would add is that you keep the lights out for the first few hours as well.

 

[MikeNapoli]

It sounds like you're ready. If the rubbermaid rock was going to be a problem the snails would probably be dead.

If you want to be sure:
How many pounds roughly of rock do you have in the tank currently?
How much rock do you have in the rubbermaid?

What is the nitrate reading of both the tank and the rubbermaid?
When was the last time you did a water change on either of them?
Are you feeding either "tank" any food at all to sustain the bacteria?

Carlo

I have just over 70lbs in the 55 and I have another 90lbs in the rubbermaid.

I havn't checked the levels in the rubermaid but my tank is less than 10ppmnitrate 0 trites and 0 amonia

I do weekly 10 gallon changes in my 55 gallon and I used new water for the rock when I got it and I changed 100% of the water in the rubbermaid after the 4th day.

I give my 55 gallon phyto- for the corals. Haven't put anything in the rubbermaid except new salt water.

 

[AnDom1]

Good catch John..I agree

Dom

 

[blange3]

Hey Mike,

Sounds like the rock will furnish plenty of grazing material.

If you do a search in the fish forum on RC and type in Flame Angel and Coral Beauty, you'll find that this is a pretty popular topic. Many folks suggest that the angels not be close in size. If you do check out these threads, ANGEL*FISH is someone who knows her stuff pretty well.

I do tend to be on the conservative side with setup and introducing new fish. I cycled my 75 for five months before I added any coral or fish. I quarantine my fish for 4 weeks before adding to an established reef system. I have been known to cut corners on the FOWLR.

Let me know when your doing the upgrade and I'll lend a hand if I can.