Cycling a Refugium

[arvin]

Somewhere I read that the most stupid question is the one that is not asked. So here we go:

Should I cycle a fuge before introducing it to the system? When I added a new sump I assumed since it is really a big water change, I made sure the salinity & temperature matched that of the display tank. Other than that, I did not run any tests of any kind. I guess for a fuge, since it is going to be housing animals, I think that I have to follow the procedures of starting a new tank.

Let me know what precautions I should take. The display is a 72 gallon, sump is about 80 gallon (that holds 50 gallons of water) and the fuge is 75 gallon.

 

[saltwater4life]

you won't need to cycle it as far as i know just make sure the salinity is the same and you should be fine.

 

[reefsandrotts]

I never cycled mine but I watched my paramiters closely for the first 2 weeks.
I also left the light cycle 24-7 for the first month but now run it opposite the tank lighting.
1 thing if possable take some of the live sand and rock from the main display to speed up your seeding in the fuge.
HTH

 

[Carlo]

That is a big addition of new water you will be adding to the system at one time. While there may not be any problems with just adding that much new water to the system at one time I myself would handle it a little differently.

Here is what I've done. I got new water ready for a water change. I then pumped water from my display into what will become the refuge. You could do 25 to 30 gallons a shot. Then add the new water to the tank. Put a powerhead or two in the fuge and drop a piece of flake food into this tank each day (to keep the bacteria active). Do this every couple of days until you have 50 to 60 gallons of water in the new fuge. Throw a heater if needed into the fuge tank until it ties into the system to get/keep the temp matching the display tank. Then in a couple of days hook the fuge into the system and top off the remainder (15-25 gallons) with new mixed water and you're done.

The above process is a little more complex then just starting out with all "fresh" water but it will not "shock" the system since you'll be using established water from your system complete with bacteria.

Carlo

PS this is the way I always handle any new major volumes of water on my systems (sumps, fuge, etc). I'm not a fan of making major changes to a system at one time.

 

[Phyl]

We brought our fuge online without any pomp and circumstance.

If your fuge is going to be less than 20% of the overall tank volume then call it a water change and move on. We've gone way higher with no ill effect. We brought our 200g basement sump system online with "new" water (our main is a 120).

YMMV.

 

[Carlo]

He said his sump hold 50 gallons of water and his display tank is 72 gallons. He was adding a 75 gallon fuge. If he already has 125 gallons and ads another 75 gallons he would be adding 60% of his current volume. Adding 60% of you current volume at one time is probably too much.

If it's an emergency that's one thing but if he doesn't mind taking a few days he can do it very safely using the method I described above.

Carlo

 

[Phyl]

Carlo, I wasn't challenging your experience, just sharing ours (adding 167% of the existing volume when we brought our sump online).

The greatest benefit of these forums is a wide range of people sharing all of their ideas and experiences. When we lose the ability to share what's worked for each us we lose something very valuable here at NJRC.

 

[Carlo]

Phyl, I agree completely with you. I didn't take what you wrote as challenging at all. I just didn't know if you noticed he had mentioned tank sizes and it was more then the 20% you mentioned. I too have had to add large amounts of water to my system and didn't suffer from doing it but I do usually like to do it in smaller steps when ever possible.

I just try and "qualify" things so that others reading it OR if someone does a search down the road and finds the thread they'll see a couple of different ways to "skin the cat". They can then decide after reading some different options how they wish to proceed for their system.

Carlo

PS I'm going through something similar right now with the move. I'm doing the water changes now to fill a few 35 gallon containers with display water so I'll have it available to me for the new setup.

 

[mfisher2112]

Doesn't a very limited amount of "bacteria" so to speak reside in the water cloumn? My understanding is that the rock and substrate carry the filtration, not the water column.

That being said, if the rock/sand etc that he is adding to the fuge are already cured and cycled, there shouldn't be any cycle by increasing the water volume, right?

I've read arcticles (I think one was by Anthony Calfo) about people doing 100% water changes with no ill effects on a stable well filtered system. Not that I would ever condone 100% water changes with livestock in the system, but nonetheless...

At any rate, I wouldn't think that there would be any issue with adding the sump/fuge to the system unless there were components in the new water volume that would be cycling and thus overtaxing the existing filtration.

I added a 20 gallon sump/fuge to my 55 without any issue at all.

Just my two cents, fwiw.

 

[Phyl]

Very well said, Matt. Worth the two cents, IMO!

 

[concept3]

you can think of it's like a water change. when I added my 30 gallon frag tank to my old 75 gallon and 10 gallon-ish sump, I simply filled the 30 gallon frag tank with new SW with the same water consistency and opened the valve to feed it (and mix the two waters which then drained back down to sump) No ill effects.

 

[Carlo]

If the PH, Alk, Temp & Salinity match your existing water you shouldn't have a problem as long as you are running a pump in the make up water to keep the O2 high.

mfisher2112, I'm not sure where that started from but a lot of bacteria lives in the water column. Have you ever looked at your tank water under a microscope? The anaerobic bacteria needs the rock or other low O2 environment to thrive. Honestly though, the bacteria is really of no concern. It's the items mentioned above you want to make sure matches up.

If you follow Anthony's threads and other items you'll see/read about some disasters that have happened due to water changes and other large system changes. A very common occurrence of large water additions is algae breakouts. Most of the time it's because the current water doesn't match that being added. Another semi common problem is fish death due to low O2. If your tank water is borderline and you add a mass amount of low O2 water then the O2 in the tank water is further reduced and bam, dead fish.

Honestly, this really isn't a big deal if done right. If you match the items I listed at the top of this message to your tank water and circulate the water pretty decently you shouldn't have any problems at all.

Carlo

 

[arvin]

The water in the refugium is all salt mixed already, the temperature is set and the powerheads are running in it. I threw in a dead fish for good measure (what am i going to do with those dead fish anyway). I am not allowed to work on diy projects during weekdays, so I have time till this Saturday to connect the fuge to the rest of the system. Let the fish rot and seed the tank until then. Moreover now since all the fish are gone, I have less to worry about.

As an update, I bought a chromis yesterday and it survived the night. That rules out all other hypothesis except of course lack of oxygen that caused the disaster.

Thanks for all your inputs guys. They were really of immense help to me.

 

[mfisher2112]

cayars, I defer to the obvious expert.

Arvind: You should do what makes you most comfortable. Cycling it definitely will not harm anything. If that makes you more comfortable, I say go for it. What's a couple extra days, right? I don't believe you can ever go wrong approaching something new with caution! ;D

FWIW, I find that an expert is only as good as the wealth of information he/she has gathered from other experts, and to what degree they are willing to incorporate new ideas and successes into their tool box of knowledge. If this weren't true, some people would still think the world was flat! ;D

 

[Phyl]

Arvin, That dead fish will likely cause an ammo spike in that water by Saturday. I would take it out. It would serve you better in the garden. You don't want ammo in that fuge and unless you're going to change the water over before you integrate it into your system.

 

[arvin]

Matt,

I have read before that bacteria lives in the rock and substrate and not in the water. That is why when we setup a saltwater tank first, once the tank is cycled, before adding livestock, it is recommended to go for a big water change not worrying about any bacteria loss. Based on that knowledge I added the sump assuming it is just a water change, nothing else. But now since something went wrong with no proper explanation, I am just trying to tread carefully.

Addendum:
Oh god, Thanks Phyllis. Yes, will do.

Cheers!

 

[mfisher2112]

Can't say I blame you there. I tend to tread lightly and ask ALOT of questions before doing something new, so I'm with ya there.

Go slow, document your changes (so you can look back), give each change a chance to take hold and have its effects, and enjoy the process. ;D

And I agree with Phyl, get that dead fish OUTA there! ;D

Keep us posted.

 

[Carlo]

cayars, I defer to the obvious expert.
<snip>

Expert, I'm laughing at that! I've just learned the hard way at times during my 30+ years of aquariums. I'm constantly learning like everyone else but I really dive into things and like to learn as much as possible about it. It's the analytical side of me (can't help it). I'm not afraid to post an opinion and that's all it is "opinion" to give another view on a subject. Like anything else it's up to the reader to decipher the information given by all posters and make their own informed decision or to study the matter at hand more before making a decision. If some of the information I can give is useful to someone then I'm happy and feel like I'm giving back to the community who has helped me for so many years (online and off).

I'm pretty knowledgeable about tanks, water parameters, fish and most aquarium equipment and meds but don't know anywhere near as much about corals as they are pretty new to me. I never got into them until recently. I've had over 1000 gallons of display tanks running in my old house but not one piece of coral if you can believe that. 1000 nicely stocked marine gallons is my goal for this year with at least half of that being reef. I'll be learning a great deal more about corals in the coming months.

Carlo

 

[Carlo]

Have to agree, pull the fish.

Test your ammonia and nitrites each day. They will/should probably spike depending on how long the fish was in the fuge and how much it decayed. If you get a spike and it goes back to zero then just drop a small piece of flake food in the fuge each day to keep the bacteria going.

The fish probably wasn't in there long enough to do anything so don't get worked up about it especially if you ammonia and nitrites go back to zero. If they are still high when you are ready to hook it into the system DON'T until you get these back down.

 

[blange3]

Arvin,

Sorry if I missed this above, what is in the fuge? Will it have sand or rock or macro when you bring it online? All of the above? Some of the above? Or are you just connecting it with water only and adding the other things later?

I would be comfortable adding new saltwater if it was mixed from the same salt and RODI source as you have been using; and the temp, SG, ph, alk match. Also make sure that it has been thoroughly mixed and aerated for at least a full day.

If the fuge will just have macro algae and water as described above, I would think that's ok as well. If you are bringing a large amount of rock and sand online with the new fuge, I would cycle first. How long to cycle would be based on the condition of the rock and sand involved.