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Discuss - morals v law for aquarists

Mark_C

Staff member
Officer Emeritus
NJRC Member
Moderator
Recently there was an internet post that a pair of axotols had a few dozen young. These young were offered for adoption but the post was removed from the forums, and rightly so, as owning the animal is illegal in the state the ad was posted in, as well as in many other states.

But here’s the interesting part…
This astounding animal is practically extinct in the wild.
It is 'critically endangered' and the desperate efforts to save it in the wild aren't going well.
Why? Mankind of course. Axotols live(d) in two lakes with a river system association. We drained one of the lakes, polluted the surrounding waterways, and made their final selective niche lake poisonous to them.

They now mostly survive in aquariums and in the homes of people that have found them fascinating and have raised them with love and care.

The poster may well have purchased or adopted them where they were legal and moved them, or perhaps they were purchased from a local shop without a label.
Regardless…
The poster obviously provided an environment that suited the axotols so well that they bred successfully.
In this case it's a situation where skirting the law, mistaken or not, has led to the birth of dozens of young of a species that is critically endangered in the wild.
I think that is F6%^38&% amazing.
Seriously...
Home aquarists are now the majority caregivers of a technically extinct species.
We've talked of this for years. Even the NJRC's motto is 'Saving the world's reefs, one living room at a time'.

And there seems enough of the species breeding in home and public aquariums to help re-establish them in the wild, on the condition their last existing habitat, which lies next to an expanding Mexico City, is cleaned by man, which we know will not happen.

So, even if it is on the books as ‘illegal’, is it morally wrong to own this animal, breed it, share it, and to keep a species from being wiped out?

Discuss.


My take:
I feel that given the ability to keep a non-threatening species alive, a species that was not wiped out by natural selection but by man made pollutants, is almost a responsibility to those able to do so, legal or not.

.
 
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erics210

NJRC Member
I discussed this after attending a large cat rescue in Indiana. They kept saying less than 500 known in the wild. Less than 1,000 known in the wild. But common at every zoo you can name. I know the Bronx does breed and trade with other zoos. I am not sure if they re release to the wild. Also watched speacial about little frogs inian Asian county rain forest. They took adults sent to the US college/University. Breed and bred and cross bred and started re release Ingram tens of thousands into a reserved area of the rain forest. I am all for it.
By the way...
I have a clutch of DoDo birds hatching next month....if anyone is interested.
 

Trio91

Administrator
Staff member
Moderator
From my understanding, its illegal to sell them in New Jersey and from NJ fish and wildlife, the rules seem to be geared towards shop owners looking to sell.....I mean I'm no expert but that what I understood. Yes it does say that possession is illegal , but it doesn't say anything directly towards the homeowner.....but again just maybe my interpretation.

Majority of the posts out there about them came from ".orgs" who I'm assuming like some of the bigger ones feel the same way about us keeping exotic fish in glass boxes.

I think it's awesome that someone was able to breed them successfully. I dont care for them, but still pretty neat.

Also, please DO NOT DELETE POSTS on the forum. Please move them into the Mod section.
 

diana a

Staff member
NJRC Member
Moderator
The Axotols isn’t illegal in nj because it could go Extinct but what could happen it someone irresponsible let their pet loose in the environment because they don’t want it any longer. My son has kept very large lizards...monitor lizard to name one. He is currently a pre-med student who wants to be a vet. I asked him question about Axotols and he pointed me at this paper. Then I had to politely sit through a lecture:confused: on the environment

https://rucore.libraries.rutgers.edu/rutgers-lib/41230/PDF/1
 

mnat

Officer Emeritus
Staff member
Moderator
Unfortunately given massive bleaching on coral reefs and increasing ocean temp and acidity, this might be an issue in this hobby sooner than later. It is going to be interesting, should you have to register your tank and growing conditions? How will this affect the prices and availability? Who should get to keep their corals and should they go to bigger facilities?

I remember talking to someone who had commented that hobbyists were better at keeping corals than scientists trying to study them so who knows.
 
From my understanding in order to keep axolotls in the state of NJ you have to have a exotic animals hobby permit. Also it must be proven the animals were from a captive bred source and not the wild. See, almost all axolotls that are sold are captive bred because given the right conditions they are easy to breed and raise. One reason for them being "Illegal" is the state does not want them being released and breeding with other salamanders one in particular which is in a critical state right now. to be honest people who keep axolotls actual care for the animal and I'm pretty sure have no intensions of releasing them. It just becomes a matter of educating the public on proper pet care and why releasing animals in a place they obviously don't belong is the worst thing they can do.
 

njtiger24 aquariums

Officer Emeritus
Article Contributor
I know, wasn't directed to you (sorry if it came off that way)

I saw the post. Was just putting it out there.
FYI I 'deleted' the thread. I deleted and not moved it as simple as I did not want our site, club, or member to be in trouble for that post.

Mark you bring up a good point. The problem with laws like this is they hurt people who are trying to help and do the right thing. They are made for folks who have no respect for animales and just try to profit off of them or do other things to them.
 

Mark_C

Staff member
Officer Emeritus
NJRC Member
Moderator
The pet release thing I understand.
Many years ago I raised ferrets and it required a special exotic animal license at the time for the same reason, they didn't want ferrets running amok mating with or killing local wildlife.
It almost seemed a mute point. My ferrets were not tagged or tracked. I could easily have just opened the front door and let them loose with no fear of repercussion. How would they track them to me?
It seems the exotic license permit is there to make a few bucks for the state as there are no real checks or follow ups on the animals.
Saying that, the additional $75 or so (thats what it was back then), may help limit the amount sold to people on a whim.

But we've diverged from the original discussion point which hasn't generated much interest regardless. Was hoping to generate a decent debate.

Also, NJ and California are the only states where the animal is illegal to purchase.
California is understandable as they're almost Napoleonic law (everything is illegal till it is legalized).
NJ, well, is NJ.
 

njtiger24 aquariums

Officer Emeritus
Article Contributor
The pet release thing I understand.
Many years ago I raised ferrets and it required a special exotic animal license at the time for the same reason, they didn't want ferrets running amok mating with or killing local wildlife.
It almost seemed a mute point. My ferrets were not tagged or tracked. I could easily have just opened the front door and let them loose with no fear of repercussion. How would they track them to me?
It seems the exotic license permit is there to make a few bucks for the state as there are no real checks or follow ups on the animals.
Saying that, the additional $75 or so (thats what it was back then), may help limit the amount sold to people on a whim.

But we've diverged from the original discussion point which hasn't generated much interest regardless. Was hoping to generate a decent debate.

Also, NJ and California are the only states where the animal is illegal to purchase.
California is understandable as they're almost Napoleonic law (everything is illegal till it is legalized).
NJ, well, is NJ.

Mark I believe that the pet release thing plays a role in this discussion. The 'moraly wrong' depends on the owner I think. There are some good owners out there, like the one who posted, but they can be drown out by poor owners. How do we decided who is a 'good onwer' and a 'bad owner'. There are many folks out there that take animales like this and try to sell them for big bucks. They don't care about the life of the animale and/or saving the species but for making money. Then there owners who get these animales but know nothing about how to care for them but got them casue 'they look cool' . The animle either die or the owner gets tired of the pet and release it into the while not knowing any different.
 
cool thread and great info/responses.

I think the laws exist on the books to prevent some unforeseen natural disaster. There are many examples of these sorts of problems.

Fish invasions:
  1. Asian Carp in the Mississippi river and much of the US watershed.
  2. Lionfish in the Atlantic.
  3. Nile perch in Lake Victoria
  4. Snakehead fish in US
Reptile Invasions:
  1. Burmese Pythons in the Florida Everglades
  2. Red Earred Sliders all over the north east and possibly the world.
The above list is not all-inclusive or ordered. just simply some things I have noted.

Can the Axolotl - be as invasive as the above examples? Probably not. However - can you tell me what the difference is between a western tiger salamander larvae vs an axolotl larvae? Unlikely because they are closely related and look virtually identical as larvae. If western tiger salamanders were released into NJ - could they impact our eastern tiger salamanders? Yes more than likely.
NJ only has one significant spot where eastern tiger salamanders are in the wild - Cape May. Endangered New Jersey: Salamanders At Cape May Vernal Pool

So while I am sympathetic to the plight of the axolotl, we should consider both sides of the coin when considering whether a law makes sense or not.
 
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