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diy 2 part solution question

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NJ_ychung1

hi anyone or all:

Is anyone on the forum doing the DIY 2 part solution?

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

some thing in this article doesn't make sense to me. the author states that....

"...the recipe is designed for aquarists to dose equal portions of the two parts every time they dose."

My traditional understanding is that when dosing 2 part, it is recommended you go alternate days with part 1 and part 2. For example part1 on Monday. then Part 2 on tuesday then part 1 again following day so on and so forth.

This author argues that he recommeds this home brew 2 part solution both part1 and part2 in equal amount each day.

Can anyone help explain why the disparity?

thx

Jay
 
B

boontonbob

I agree in that I would supplemental both components at the same time, although on after the other. It is pretty tedious doing it daily

I have a 75g and ended up going back to the stock ESV two part system as my calcium load is fairly light.

Go slowly on the Calcium Chloride dosing. I found that putting that part into my display was better since I had some issues dumping it into my sump. I use internal return pumps and have burned out a number of Magdrives due to calcium buildup on the impeller magnet. It always happened within a day of going on vacation. I now do more regular vinegar soaks.
 
B

Boomer

Jay

First, that is the last author that you want to "argue " with in this hobby :) As he is the most well know and most sot after reef chemist. He holds a Ph.D in chemistry from Harvard, graduated summa cum laude with a GPA of 4, is a world renowned chemist in his own field, a director of a research lab, with a bio a mile long, to include 50 world patents and has been in this hobby for many years. He has written countless articles for us on reef chemistry. It is petty much we would not be where we are today in reef chem if it was not for him. And 99.9 % of the people in this hobby will agree on that. Almost everybody in this forum knows with Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley is :) I help run a reef chem forum with him and have so for years 10 years.

My traditional understanding is that when dosing 2 part, it is recommended you go alternate days with part 1 and part 2. For example part1 on Monday. then Part 2 on Tuesday then part 1 again following day so on and so forth.


That Jay is easy to explain :D The reason that some advocate this is do to a lack of understand of the chemistry and what has happened to them at times when they does the same day. Many have dosed the two-part at the same time and in the same place like the sump. This causes the water in that sump to become over oversaturated, raises its pH high, which causes the water in the sump to cloud up a cause the precip of CaCO3 a solid that does not dissolve. It is fine to add it the same day and even at the same exact time. The rule is try not to dose them in the same place at the same exact time. If you want to dose it in the same exact place that is fine, just wait a few min before you do it so that part has time to circulate.

What happens when you dose at the same time in the same small area is this


When saturated:

Your Ca++ is CaCl

Your buffer part is NaHCO3

CaCl ===> Ca++ + Cl

NaHCO3 ==> Na+ + HCO3- ==> Na+ + H+ + CO3--

Ca++ + CO3-- ==> CaCO3 ( a solid, due to the high pH and oversaturated solution))



When unsaturated:

Your Ca++ is CaCl

Your buffer part is NaHCO3

CaCl ===> Ca++ + Cl

NaHCO3 + Ca++ ==> Na+ + HCO3- + Ca++ ( no solid, pH is lower and solution is not oversaturated)




So, you just lost some of the sup you added, that made a bunch of patricides that settle to the bottom and just more or less sit there. You just wasted some of your two-part. The reason not to add them a day part is that you off set the balance of Calcium to Alkalinty that you are trying to achieve.
 
N

NJ_ychung1

wow. i didn't know i wanted to argue with that author.... it seemed he knew his stuff. i'm not sure where the dosing 2 parts on diff day comes from. who came up with that i wonder. i'm infact getting prepped buying the dowflakes etc per his instruction instead of the liquid bottles i've been buying at high expense.

your response to the thread is the education i was looking to gain.

thanks very much and confirms that i'm on the right track following his article.

jay
 
N

NJ_ychung1

hey boomer. one more question. with respect to this topic. is it accurate to say that only part 2 (alkalinity buffer) has an immediate and direct effect on pH thus requiring dosing at a slow rate? in other words, is it even necessary to dose calcium chloride at a slow rate? i think it is necessary for part2/alkalinity buffer to be added slowly due to pH changing effect it has.

?? any pointers would be appreciated.
 
B

Boomer

No both, BUT, for if the Ca++ gets high it does not need much buffer to create a snow storm, just like to much buffer can but in general it is more of a buffer due to the higher pH than a C++ thing.

OK, in the olden days we use to do something if the Ca++ was to high or the Alk was to high

1. Ca++ to high = Add a bunch of buffer to combine with the Ca++ to produce CaCO3 lowering the Ca++ to a better level

2. Alk to high = Add a bunch of CaCl where the Ca++ reacts with the buffer producing CaCO3 lowering the ALk.

We try now not to have people do this. But, this does not mean add a tad wait a few min add a tad more. It means just don't dump in all of it at once and the last one you would want to dump in all at once is the buffer. So, normally with the Ca++ it is OK most of the time, when just supp'in. The biggest issue with the CaCl2 is if you are not adding it as a sup / say but the Ca++ is low and you're boosting it up say 50 ppm in one shot, not a good idea. 50 ppm in one day is fine but not all at once. With the amount you will be adding as a sup, in most cases, it is OK to dump either of them in all at once, in two different areas or at different times. So, it is the amount you are adding in one shot.
 
N

NJ_ychung1

i think i gotcha. thanks again. someday. i'll understand it all better than i do now.... take it easy. so far i understand your explanation.
 
C

code3

On we go with this timing! My thought was to use a dosing pump and have part 1 run at various part of the "day" (when calcium in needed most) and to have part 2 run at various times through the "night" (to help balance the pH reduction over night).

Does this make sense? or will it cause other issues?

Great forum - really appreciate it!!
 
P

pgordemer

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
Dose them together in the same amounts just in different parts of the Sump.

I have my ALK dumping right next to my skimmer ouput, so there is lots of agitation to mix it in, and I have the CA being added on the other side of the sump right next the return pump.

The key in 2 part is you add the SAME amount of both with the idea that this KEEPS a level. If you need to get something up to a level, add it seperately in addition to your dosing.

In my case, I drip both from 2:00AM to 6:00am each day and my levels have been unchanged for 2 years.
 
asonitez

asonitez

I'm trying to decide if to go and buy a bag of dowflakes or if I should just invest in a calcium reactor. I find it hard to keep up with my calcium use and I hate dosing in the morning. I would love to automate the whole thing and never have to worry about it. I am sometimes in a rush in the morning and I don't get to dose. My calcium issue is primarily because of the Instant Ocean that I use. I mean its at 400ppm for Calcium but for growth I think I need to be around 450/500.
 
C

code3

I finally managed to get hold of Dowflake, only to fine out it is not Dowflake, but instead is Dowfake Xtra!!

Does anyone have idea if this will work. It appears that the difference is that it has CaBr2 (Calcium Bromide) less than 1%. I know real salt water has bromine.........but will this cause things to go out of wack?

Hope it works but do not want to harm things.............

Please HELP!! :)

Cheers
 
Nickjr000

Nickjr000

pgordemer said:
Dose them together in the same amounts just in different parts of the Sump.
Click to expand...


Couldn't agree more, just following the directions that are on any 2 part i've ever used. If you dose a one day and b the next I think your levels will be all outta wack
 
The_Codfather

The_Codfather

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
I dose Part A in the mornings and Part B when i get home from work... The only reason is I only have a 40 gl
 
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