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DSB/RDSB? Think Again People

D

ds4x4

Anyone that praises Deep Sad Beds or Remote Deep Sand Beds needs to read this thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1593453

heres the first post from Paul B himself

New Nitrate theory

I have been wondering for years why so many people have high nitrate forcing them to change large volumes of water when they have DSBs which are supposed to eliminate nitrates through anerobic bacteria.

Some people have even resorted to adding remote DSBs or constructing them very deep.
This does not help and new research explains why.
I recently read a "Sea Scope" publication written by Bob Goemans and it confirms what I have been saying for years.
DSB technology is flawed, but we never knew exactly why.
Yesterday I called Bob at his home to discuss the article.
We think of two different types of bacteria that inhabit the two zones in an aquarium. One is aerobic heterotrophs which live in the upper layer of a DSB and every other oxygenated surface in a tank. The other is Anerobic bacteria that inhabit anerobic or very low oxygen areas.
These anerobic bacteria (we thought) are the ones that convert nitrate to harmless nitrogen gas which harmlessly bubbles out of the water.
Now we find that there is another form of bacteria that lives in close association with the nitrate reducing bacteria in deeper, less oxygenated layers. These other bacteria are also anerobic but they convert nitrogen back to ammonium. As the ammonium rises from the deeper layers it is again converted back to nitrate and diffuses into the water column.

There are not just two zones in an aquarium but three. There is aerobic or oxygen rich areas, anerobic areas which have very little to no oxygen and anoxic zones which are in between and have a small amount of oxygen. Such an area would be just under the surface of the sand or gravel (or in a slow running RUGF)
The anoxic layer with a small amount of oxygen is where the beneficial bacteria florish which convert nitrate to harmless gas.
If a tank has a large anerobic (no oxygen) area such as a DSB and a small anoxic ( or low oxygen) area, nitrate and nitrite could be converted back to ammonium, then back again to nitrate.

A quote from Bobs article
"This is referred to as the ammonification process. The continueing re processing of this ammonium produced in the lower anerobic level of the substrate, back into nitrite and nitrate in the upper reaches of the substrate, is quite feasable. With any of them-ammonium, nitrite, nitrate-leaching back into the bulk water is quite possable"

So it seems that if we want to reduce nitrate we need to have more anoxic or "low" not "no" oxygen areas. DSBs that are not very deep or gravel beds would accomplish this
Click to expand...
 
Hawkeye

Hawkeye

His main theory (and it is just a theory) is that DSB are the cause of nitrates.

Such a generalization for all tanks is flawed. You and I both know the vast majority of people overstock their tanks. Furthermore people also place a DSB in an area/volume that is entirely too small and then throw in a half dozen sand-sifting stars and claim they "clean" the bed.

I think the point is this - if it works for another reefers - why do you insist on throwing stones at their method? While I appreciate Paul B - he has had (for some time now) had an axe to grind against people who promote DSB. In fact - pretty much all the heavy volume posters on RC are like that. That was not always the case until they had that schism several years back.

In my opinion, both bare bottoms and deep sand beds have been proven to work for different hobbyists.

He is only painting a partial picture and I would submit that there's more to the story than just saying "it doesn't work".
 
jimroth

jimroth

Bob Goemans is super-knowlegeable and a great guy, but he's hardly impartial. He's been the innovator and champion of the plenum system of marine aquarium keeping for many, many years. I think DSB's kind of rained on his parade.
 
blange3

blange3

ds4x4 said:
So it seems that if we want to reduce nitrate we need to have more anoxic or "low" not "no" oxygen areas. DSBs that are not very deep or gravel beds would accomplish this
Click to expand...

OK, so I'll make one comment. This piece confirms what I have observed and reported when others have insisted that you don't get any conversion to nitrogen in sandbeds that aren't greater than 6 to 8 inches.

My sandbeds have always been in the 3 to 5 inch range with zero measurable nitrates.

Also did anyone read between the lines that this supports the use of plenums or undergravel filters? What goes around comes around. ;D

I will now disappear and go back to the new study I heard about confirming that VHO's produce superior growth and coloration. ;)
 
Baxreefs

Baxreefs

IMHO, I have always felt the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I am a fan of sand in the display and in beds, in the fuge, sea grass tanks, remote DSB whatever and think their benefits far outweigh the negatives. That said, they are not maintenance free and I feel too many aquarisits are trying to set up a sand
beds and then ignore them for four or five years and then wonder why they have a crash. You have to plan for maintenace.

Admittedly, for me, mantenance of my DT sand bed has been upgrades! So, for my next tank, for which I can't imagine an upgrade ;D, I am leaning toward a BB display ( I know ... GASP!)with very maintanable sand beds, of all variety, in the behind the scene part of the system.
 
C

concept3

Hi Bill, Hi Jim, Hi Bax, Hi Phil.

Just popped in to say Hi.

No wonder my ears were ringing all day today, unfortunately, I'm busy making a spin off dish for Saint Patty's day. Double cooked Corned beef with southwestern hash :D

Behave kids!
 
Baxreefs

Baxreefs

Sounds good Merv!

I am way more focused on going to my sister-in-laws house tonight for corned beef, potatoes & cabage, soda bread and Guiness, then sand beds myself.
 
blange3

blange3

Baxreefs said:
Sounds good Merv!

I am way more focused on going to my sister-in-laws house tonight for corned beef, potatoes & cabage, soda bread and Guiness, then sand beds myself.
Click to expand...

Amen to that! And I'm a very proud father today as I have a daughter who stocked the fridge with Guiness, Harp and Smithwicks!
 
jimroth

jimroth

Urrrp...just got back from Murphy's Hideaway in the Rockaway Borough, where they're 3-deep at the bar! Guinness out of a plastic cup, it ain't right! Corned beef is in the oven and the kids are enjoying their green Pringles (guacamole flavor, very Irish).
 
J

Jcurry@wesketch

ds4x4 said:
I have been wondering for years why so many people have high nitrate forcing them to change large volumes of water when they have DSBs...
Click to expand...

So I guess he's suggesting that people with BB tanks don't need to do water changes?

I personally have run a BB (or better known as the Berlin Method to those over 40)and a DSB tank. Both were very succesful but I prefer the asethics and the benefits of the DSB.
 
D

DaveK

This is an interesting thread.

I can only state the results I got over the years. Personally I found that for me a DSB gives me better results than a SSB or bear bottom. Yet, I would not call anyone using another method wrong. There are many ways to get from point A to point B in this hobby.

I will come down on the various "well known experts" who seem to come up with theories as to why one method is better than another, and yet have no serious scientific experiment constructed to verify results one way or another. I realise that for reef systems this can get very complex and extremely expensive, yet there should be at least something tested, and tested for a long period. We have people in this hobby that have fantastic reef systems, and yet use methods that many of us would consider obsolete by today's standards.

Because of this, we should all take the advice from the "reef system gods" or anyone else with a "grain of salt". I've been in the hobby more years than I care to count, and over that period of time, I have seen many of the "fish gods" come and go. I would suggest that the people to listen to are the ones that are willing to present multiple views, and then tell you why they prefer one method over another. Be wary of anyone that recommends the method they prefer as if it were a religion.
 
Paul B

Paul B

NJRC Member
So I guess he's suggesting that people with BB tanks don't need to do water changes?
Click to expand...

I don't think I suggested that. (although I personally do not change much water)I also did not write that study nor did Bob Goemans.
He got the information from a few researchers who were writing a scientific study and he published it in a free newsletter.
I did not say DSBs do not work, they obviousely do. I said the technology that makes them work is good but the technology which makes them last is flawed.
I have not been on this forum so I don't know who has the oldest continousely running DSB here.
How long do they last. I am not trying to be sarcastic, I would just like to know.
I try to learn all I can and I still can't figure out why there is any nitrates in tanks that use DSBs.
 
C

concept3

Paul B said:
SB here.
How long do they last. I am not trying to be sarcastic, I would just like to know.
I try to learn all I can and I still can't figure out why there is any nitrates in tanks that use DSBs.
Click to expand...


I know I know I know, at least I think I know...




Blange3 is as old as....well, he has kept SB's for as long as I've known him anyways.....

(lol, we luv ya Bill, oh buddy, oh pal....)


oh boy, here comes my BB beating
 
SirFragalot

SirFragalot

I think it's one of those "What works for one might not work for another" type of thing. Not everyone with DSB's have nitrate problems.
 
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