Feedback for QT setup

[nyaquatic]

the issue isn't the tank size, which is fine.
You have both a HOB filter and LR, both of which provide biological filtration.
He has neither, which is a problem.

That's ultimately the danger of the internet.

What's dangerous is you, a vendor coming here trying to undermine a member of our club. You need to take this off-line and do it privately.

How am I trying to undermine anyone?
Yes, Ryanpaul and I have a sepaate disagreement.
I gave him creit for the fish he lost and he wants a refund that he's not entitled to.
Separate issue.

He uses a QT system that is fundamentally flawed.
He asked for feedback, and I gave it without saying anything inflamatory.

But, I see how this club works.
I won't "follow" him anymore.
You guys can go back to your closed door bashing.

 

[Rbu1]

As JR stated previously lets get this QT thread back.

I don't care what anyone says there should never be ammonia in any tank. All it does is add undue stress to the animal and could possibly kill it. If you are getting ammonia you are doing something wrong. The trick to a proper QT as stated earlier is..

Set up the tank and let it COMPLETELY cycle
Add fish preferably 1 maybe 2 depending on tank size
Feed the heck out of the fish for a week or 2 before medicating
This is my personal preference ....I treat everything with Cupramine and Prazipro but not at the same time
4 weeks cupramine at .5
1 week remove copper
1 week prazipro
1 week feed and observe
then in the main tank..... Your looking at an 8 to 10 week QT period.

 

[Rbu1]

the issue isn't the tank size, which is fine.
You have both a HOB filter and LR, both of which provide biological filtration.
He has neither, which is a problem.

That's ultimately the danger of the internet.

What's dangerous is you, a vendor coming here trying to undermine a member of our club. You need to take this off-line and do it privately.

How am I trying to undermine anyone?
Yes, Ryanpaul and I have a sepaate disagreement.
I gave him creit for the fish he lost and he wants a refund that he's not entitled to.
Separate issue.

He uses a QT system that is fundamentally flawed.
He asked for feedback, and I gave it without saying anything inflamatory.

But, I see how this club works.
I won't "follow" him anymore.
You guys can go back to your closed door bashing.

Michael you and I have spoken numerous times and you know as well as I that forums can be a bad place. Everyone has an opinion and they are entitled to it. I have been to your place of buisness, an almost 3 hour ride I might add, and had no issues with your setup. You get some awesome hard to get fish and your prices are better then most if not all places I have seen. Lets face it the saltwater hobby is not an easy one and if everything was perfect well we would not need these forums. I think we all should get along and work with each other to make these forums a more friendly place to be.....

 

[nyaquatic]

If I knew how, I'd put two of those huggy faces, but I'm too old for all this technology.

All I wanted to do was help people understand how to, and how not to, QT.
If people are more interested in taking sides in a disagreement they know nothing about, so be it.
Let them kill more fish in uncycled, unfiltered QT tanks.
Hell, I hear toilets make perfect QT tanks.
That way, when they die, disposal is a snap.

 

[Rbu1]

Here is an article dated April 1987 from Instant Oceans SeaScope. These articles are loaded with information. Look at vol 4 spring 1987 Here is what it says...

In salt water at high ph levels (8.1-8.3) ammonia is much more toxic. Fish exposed to levels above 0.8 can be severly stressed and may develope scarring of delicate gill tissues further complicated by secondary infections. These tend to reduce the ability to obtain oxygen from the water. After the ammonia level drops the scars remain.......

http://www.instantocean.com/uploade...ceanKnowledge/SeaScope/Past/SS_Vol04_1987.pdf

 

[Rbu1]

:-* :-* :-* ;D ;D ;D

 

[ricwilli]

ED is that you? Have you become a re-newbie? I'm only seeing a post count of 1 for you. I refreshed IE to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Sorry off topic......

 

[Hawkeye]

D'oh -. I forgot the decimal point. LOL. I do not exceed 0.2 ppm on the tanks. Sorry. It's easier if I just said the color on the badge - I don't go anywhere above "green" on the ammonia badges. Yellow/green ok - blue = death.

Again - the QT is fine in my opinion for a small fish like an angler that moves what - an inch a day?

And I guess that's the point - that's my opinion.

My opinion is also that the vendor should not try and resolve conflicts on public forum/threads. I think we can agree that such a forum is hardly constructive and just leads to people taking sides. This thread was supposed to be about Qt'ing - not about the "mike nyaquatic" way of QTing' - which HE brought into this thread. When that is the crux of the conflict - imho - he is badgering the customer.

 

[Hawkeye]

If people are more interested in taking sides in a disagreement they know nothing about, so be it.
Let them kill more fish in uncycled, unfiltered QT tanks.
****, I hear toilets make perfect QT tanks.
That way, when they die, disposal is a snap.

Oh ha ha ha - you are so funny.Not even worth commenting.

 

[Hawkeye]

When it comes to treating illness and what I was thinking about ich in particular BB and no LR is best as you can keep it clean. That is probably why Hawk is able to keep all his parameters in line because his tank is very easy to clean up with water changes.

for clarity - the clownfish fry tanks cannot run a sponge filter because the fry are too dumb and will lodge themselves right into the filter itself - killing themselves. If I had the time I could plumb a separate tank with the filter but i don't. Then also if you attach a air-line to the sponge filter, you would trap all the rotifers into the filter that are supposed to be in the water column acting as prey for the fry.

The entire point was just that it's possible to do with vigilance and daily/every other day water changes. Like everything in this hobby there is no single way that has to be done.

the thread has gone to heck already - I should just give myself the drama llama pic...

 

[Rbu1]

I can see both sides of this story. You have a customer that feels he did not get proper treatment and you have a store owner defending his stance. As someone stated earlier nothing is going to get accomplished on here by either party. Things may actually get worse. I don't know Michael that well, but like I said I did have dealings with him. In my dealings with Michael he was willing to work with us. The fact that this situation was brought to an open forum with some heated debated going back and forth might make him less willing to work with anyone. This thread should go back to just talking about the QT process. I am no expert but do have really good feedback on the QT process. I can say I have actually lost a good amount of fish in QT and sadly that has hopefully improved my process. I don't blame the vendor, I blame my process. Could I have blamed the vendor sure but I would rather learn from my mistakes to prevent them in the future.

I will say this again because it is REALLY important to the QT process. Make sure your tank is completely cycled. You should have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite. The ideal thing to do is have a filter running on your main tank all the time so if you need to set something up the bacteria is already seeded. In my opinion those bottled bacteria will work but they can get expensive. I was actually told that the water in your QT should the at or better to the water quality in your main tank. Good Luck and believe me the QT process is worth it in the long run

 

[JRWOHLER]

I still end up with algae in the QT it is amazing. That is a side note.
I don't like to treat with chemicals(I would if I knew I had to), I do treat with hyposalinity. My process which is not perfect I suppose but I have only lost one fish in QT out of 9 recently.
I try to match my QT but slightly under the salinity of the fish store where I buy the fish.
Then after 24-36 hours I slowly start to drop the salinity to 09. This usually takes me about a week. In my 24G AP which is my QT tank at the momment I do 2 gallons per day water change day. Then I keep the salinity there for 3 weeks(try to do daily water changes with correct salinity), assuming no signs of ich. Then reverse course slowly bringing the salinity back up...take about week again...I use DT water on the way back up for cost savings if nothing else plus then my QT better matches my DT. When it is pretty close I then move the fish...I still drip acclimate them.

I for some reason aways buy fish in 3s? So it has worked with three fish at time. They usually come from AO or OGII. I figure they are coming from the same system so what one has the others have already been exposed to. Don't know if it a great system feel free to point out what I could do better. I do have small amount of LR in the back chamber and two PVC pipes and a yellow Roman type piller decoration in the QT, fish like it and I had it laying around. I change filter floss daily and carbon also.

 

[TanksNStuff]

With less than a year experience in keeping a fish/reef tank, I'm no where near an expert. However, like Rbu1, I have lost at least one fish due to my QT methods. Actually, it wasn't due to my method, but due to my assumption that all fish needed to be in QT for a month.

The one I lost was a green mandarin, which later I was told that they don't have scales and also produce a slime coating to protect against diseases like ich. If I had discovered this sooner, I could have put him directly into my DT (acclimating first of course) instead of putting him in a QT where there wasn't any LR for him to feed off of. By the time I got him in my DT, he was so skinny and weak that he didn't have the strength to swim at all, and ended up flipped over by the next morning. :'( I've QT'd 3 other fish using the same method as this one, and all of those made it to the DT after 4 weeks. The only difference this time around was that it was a smaller tank (went from a 20g with an aquaclear to a 12g nano with built-in overflow/filter chambers) and instead of feeding flake foods, I added cyclopeez because that's what the salesman said he might eat.

Anyway, my point is, it's more important to learn from mistakes so we improve our methods in the future. We can also pass this knowledge onto others, but everyone must keep in mind that not all conditions will be the same for everyone trying to setup a QT.

Different tank sizes and different water conditions may vary the effectiveness of different QT setups. Are you using a 10g tank for a QT or a 30g tank? Are you starting with freshly mixed saltwater or are you starting with water from your DT? It might be easier to combat ammonia with frequent water changes on a smaller QT, but in a larger one it might not be enough to just do water changes.

There are also many things that can cause stress to a fish, and regardless of your filtration method on the QT, other things may be helping or hurting your fish survive or die. Temperature, feeding, lighting, having or not having hiding places, etc can all be a factor in stress levels. Another thing that is easily overlooked is the species of fish you are keeping. Different species can tolerate more or less of different factors. Oh, and keeping multiple fish in the QT at once is another big factor... where a more aggressive fish can stress out the other habitant(s) of the QT.

Therefore, there is no "Perfect" way to setup a QT tank. There is probably a correct way for whatever combination of fish/tank size/feeding cycle/type of food/water quality (salinity level as well as ammonia level)/water temp you are working with... but then you need to factor in other things such as chemicals and treatments that you might add. If a couple of those, or maybe even one of them are not ideal for the specific fish you are keeping, then having the other umpteen things right may not even matter.

That said, most people will agree that you should strive for good water quality. It is proven that ammonia levels attribute to stress, so monitoring it and countering it should be a priority. IMO, it's probably better to start your QT with water directly from your DT. That is assuming that you test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate first and that you don't have any issues with those. This should start you off with "cycled" water, and if you want to start lowering salinity or changing temperature to help eliminate any possible parasite, then you can still do that during your QT period.

Well, I know I rambled a bit here. Hope I helped at least a little though.

 

[ryanpal]

With less than a year experience in keeping a fish/reef tank, I'm no where near an expert. However, like Rbu1, I have lost at least one fish due to my QT methods. Actually, it wasn't due to my method, but due to my assumption that all fish needed to be in QT for a month.

The one I lost was a green mandarin, which later I was told that they don't have scales and also produce a slime coating to protect against diseases like ich. If I had discovered this sooner, I could have put him directly into my DT (acclimating first of course) instead of putting him in a QT where there wasn't any LR for him to feed off of. By the time I got him in my DT, he was so skinny and weak that he didn't have the strength to swim at all, and ended up flipped over by the next morning. :'( I've QT'd 3 other fish using the same method as this one, and all of those made it to the DT after 4 weeks. The only difference this time around was that it was a smaller tank (went from a 20g with an aquaclear to a 12g nano with built-in overflow/filter chambers) and instead of feeding flake foods, I added cyclopeez because that's what the salesman said he might eat.

Anyway, my point is, it's more important to learn from mistakes so we improve our methods in the future. We can also pass this knowledge onto others, but everyone must keep in mind that not all conditions will be the same for everyone trying to setup a QT.

Different tank sizes and different water conditions may vary the effectiveness of different QT setups. Are you using a 10g tank for a QT or a 30g tank? Are you starting with freshly mixed saltwater or are you starting with water from your DT? It might be easier to combat ammonia with frequent water changes on a smaller QT, but in a larger one it might not be enough to just do water changes.

There are also many things that can cause stress to a fish, and regardless of your filtration method on the QT, other things may be helping or hurting your fish survive or die. Temperature, feeding, lighting, having or not having hiding places, etc can all be a factor in stress levels. Another thing that is easily overlooked is the species of fish you are keeping. Different species can tolerate more or less of different factors. Oh, and keeping multiple fish in the QT at once is another big factor... where a more aggressive fish can stress out the other habitant(s) of the QT.

Therefore, there is no "Perfect" way to setup a QT tank. There is probably a correct way for whatever combination of fish/tank size/feeding cycle/type of food/water quality (salinity level as well as ammonia level)/water temp you are working with... but then you need to factor in other things such as chemicals and treatments that you might add. If a couple of those, or maybe even one of them are not ideal for the specific fish you are keeping, then having the other umpteen things right may not even matter.

That said, most people will agree that you should strive for good water quality. It is proven that ammonia levels attribute to stress, so monitoring it and countering it should be a priority. IMO, it's probably better to start your QT with water directly from your DT. That is assuming that you test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate first and that you don't have any issues with those. This should start you off with "cycled" water, and if you want to start lowering salinity or changing temperature to help eliminate any possible parasite, then you can still do that during your QT period.

Well, I know I rambled a bit here. Hope I helped at least a little though.

thank you for your post tanksnstuff. not to stray off topic, but supposively mandarins can get ich as well. melev's blog has some information about his mandarin showing ich if i remember correctly.

ryan

 

[TanksNStuff]

See, the internet is full of differing opinions, lol. The tips given to me did not suggest that they "can't" get ich, only that they are better prepared to avoid it than most fish.

Thanks Ryan. I will check out Melev's site and do more research on mandarin's and ich before I decide to buy another one for sure though. If there's one thing I learned in this hobby, it's better to research too much than not enough.

Anyway, I appreciate the lead to Melev's blog. I guess proof that it "has happened" is more reliable that "it might not happen." Sorry if I steered your thread even more off track... let's get it back on now.

 

[Hawkeye]

dang it ryan - i thought i mis-read marc's talk on mandarin's. You made me check it again...:

here tanksnstuff - make it easy for you:
http://www.melevsreef.com/mandarin_care.html

"These fish don't get Ich as they secrete an oily substance on their bodies. Their skin type and the oils secreted make them extremely sensitive to many medications. What may heal one species will more than likely kill a mandarin. So if your other fish develop ich, the mandarin is not to be put in to quarantine. Which is fortunate because it would starve to death if you did, assuming the medication didn't kill it first."

 

[ryanpal]

dang it ryan - i thought i mis-read marc's talk on mandarin's. You made me check it again...:

here tanksnstuff - make it easy for you:
http://www.melevsreef.com/mandarin_care.html

"These fish don't get Ich as they secrete an oily substance on their bodies. Their skin type and the oils secreted make them extremely sensitive to many medications. What may heal one species will more than likely kill a mandarin. So if your other fish develop ich, the mandarin is not to be put in to quarantine. Which is fortunate because it would starve to death if you did, assuming the medication didn't kill it first."

perhaps i'm mistaken, but i believe there's a post on RC that makes a reference to melve's mandarin actually having ich. i'll have to dig this up, so please be patient with me ;]

 

[ryanpal]

here's one of the posts i'm referring too: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1182259.html

i don't have time at the moment to comb through it all, but there is a few others i've come across. perhaps they proved that it wasnt' ich? i'll read more later ;]

 

[Hawkeye]

Lol - ah the power of the internet.

here's a pic of the poor fishy:

 

[Mbodell]

I think mandarins do present a threat to carrying ich, even if they don't "have" it. I qt blennies and such in paraguard for 7-10 days at 80 degrees with a cup full of my tank sand in a small section. I had an ich outbreak starting out and the blennies went into the qt after 3 weeks later than the other fish. All were reintroduced 5 weeks later and the ich was gone.