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First F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish auction has started

kschweer

kschweer

Administrator
Staff member
Officer Emeritus
Moderator
There are 4 others being auctioned off as well. Only one if the others shows the "lightening" pattern. The same person who won this fish for $6100 is winning that auction with a $5100 bid.
 
redfishbluefish

redfishbluefish

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
I’m sorry, I don’t like it when Man fiddles with genetics. Look what they’ve done to the dog breeds…..genetic mutants that have multiple health problems.


Give me a regular old Ocellaris or Percula, and I’m happy!


TMTC
 
R

ReeferNets

redfishbluefish said:
I’m sorry, I don’t like it when Man fiddles with genetics. Look what they’ve done to the dog breeds…..genetic mutants that have multiple health problems.


Give me a regular old Ocellaris or Percula, and I’m happy!


TMTC
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Normally i would agree with you on this but these fish from a wild caught pair. This pair came from pNG, this was not genetic fiddling. These are the babies from one clutch of eggs. No more clutches have been laid.

Genetic Fiddling is the person who buys the two from the same parents. A dream come true for a breeder is getting the pair that is wild caught. Or buy one of these babies and mix it with another WC PNG maroon.

I have a pair now that is wild caught and crazy markings WC, to my knowledge none others in the US like them. I would go the same route as Matt did with these i would raise one clutch and sell them one by one, so that people do not mix clowns from the same parents and get the genetic problems you see.

People dont event realize that anywhere you see red on the white parts of these fish is a going to grow more red as the fish get bigger. This could yield crazier lightening patterns or worse case polka dots. When two of these babies breed then you most likely get platinum maroons.

Big Time Breeding operations are selective breeding but they are not infusing new genetics into the blood line. This is why a small portion of big aquaculture facilities clowns as they get older have defects that cant be seen in juvis.
 
M

mpedersen

ReeferNets said:
Normally i would agree with you on this but these fish from a wild caught pair. This pair came from pNG, this was not genetic fiddling. These are the babies from one clutch of eggs. No more clutches have been laid.[/quote[

Basically correct.

ReeferNets said:
Genetic Fiddling is the person who buys the two from the same parents.
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Not necessarily true. Line breeding is just one way of causing genetic concentration....this form of inbreeding can be used to cause the reexpression of recessive traits (eg. Albino X Normal = 100% Het Albino, outwardly Normal...breed two hets, Het. Albino X Het. Albino = 25% albino, 50% Het Albino, 25% Normal). I wouldn't call that "fiddling"....it's basic genetics / science.


ReeferNets said:
A dream come true for a breeder is getting the pair that is wild caught. Or buy one of these babies and mix it with another WC PNG maroon.
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Yes, outcrossing back to unrelated wild PNG Maroons will be good for the line and I strongly encourage it whenever possible. The issue of inbreeding however, doesn't occur with just a couple generations...it takes longer. From a foundation population standpoint, you can get a viable fish population with as few as 5 randomly breeding mates...provided you bump up the size of that F1 generation to 500 so that you get enough RANDOM mutation back into the mix to start accounting for the genetic loss that occurs with inbreeding. Of course, that translates to 250 lightning pairs...something not yet possible at this time. Plus, our current foundation population is only 2 fish, not 5. So we have some work ahead of us.

ReeferNets said:
I have a pair now that is wild caught and crazy markings WC, to my knowledge none others in the US like them. I would go the same route as Matt did with these i would raise one clutch and sell them one by one, so that people do not mix clowns from the same parents and get the genetic problems you see.
Click to expand...

Breeding sibling F1 fish together does not cause "genetic problems" in and of itself. A very vague rule of thumb is that you can line breed fish siblings, generation over generation, to about F6. That's something I grew up with as a FW breeder. There certainly is some science or data that drives that somewhat ingrained idea...but obviously outcrossing is better periodically to "reset" the inbreeding coefficient on the fish. While we commonly think of F1 as the progeny of WILD (F0) parents, the reality is that Filials were meant to denote the distance from an outcross...not the wild. F2 X F5 could result in F1 offspring..if the parents weren't related.

ReeferNets said:
People dont event realize that anywhere you see red on the white parts of these fish is a going to grow more red as the fish get bigger. This could yield crazier lightening patterns or worse case polka dots.
Click to expand...

I'd temper that statement by noting that this is the working hyothesis. It's not fact...no one knows for certain that this is what will happen. I've only come to this conclusion by watching how the pattern has developed to date. See for yourself -> http://www.lightning-maroon-clownfish.com/?p=2018

ReeferNets said:
When two of these babies breed then you most likely get platinum maroons.
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Pure speculation, but there's a concept behind what drives that thinking..sort of. First, you'd have to guess that Lightning is the same stripe mutation that causes Picasso in Percs, or Gladiator (aka. Fancy White aka. a half dozen other names) in Ocellaris. Both of THOSE mutations appear to be partially dominant; a single dose of the gene gives you Picasso, and Gladiator. Double doses give you Platinum Percs and Wyoming White Ocellaris. So in that regard, you could see Lightning being partially dominant and thus, Lightning X Lightning yielding 25% of something NEW. Now, whether that "new" would be a solid white Maroon, or would be something completely different, or could even be something FATAL, simply remains to be seen. There is no way to really put odds on this, so to sale "likely get platinum maroons" is a big jump / assumption.

ReeferNets said:
Big Time Breeding operations are selective breeding but they are not infusing new genetics into the blood line. This is why a small portion of big aquaculture facilities clowns as they get older have defects that cant be seen in juvis.
Click to expand...

HMM...I'm not sure you can make this claim without having insider firsthand knowledge of the broodstock management practices at a place like ORA or Sustainable Aquatics.
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kschweer

kschweer

Administrator
Staff member
Officer Emeritus
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The second one sold last night for $10520. Both fish went to the same person.
 
M

mpedersen

magic said:
Really nice to see you on the site Matt.

Bob
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Thanks guys.

Also for the record, please don't take my above comments as a dressing down of ReeferNets either...happens to be that I know him through other venues! I had to apologize and yet also chuckle for going all "MP" on him here; anytime I see inaccurate information coming across as authoritative, I tend to feel rather compelled to address key points that I think might be misunderstood. I think he and I are basically in the exact same boat in terms of thinking on this fish (you'll notice I didn't argue with most anything RN said..I just expounded on it to offer my own views and clarifications ;) )
 
Edwardw771

Edwardw771

NJRC Member
Has your life changed as a result of winning the MASNA award at our Macna? And from these cool lighting fish.
 
R

ReeferNets

No problem Mp.

Only time will tell. I just wish some more fish were coming from png. Those luecokranos!!!

I have told matt i find these fish to be very intriguing. They are a actually pair of wild caught fish that had babies and is a pattern no one has really seen before. We are in the begining stages of what famous pioneer clownish breeders of crazy percula strains and ocellaris strains did but its being so well documemted. In the long run it will help the hobby. In the short term its a waiting game to see what developes. It could be platiniums it s could be crazy like spider web look.

The two sold to ny area in my beliefs are going to be very crazy lightening patterns. Even the ones with less will have it. Just depends on how much. Thats the question.

Breeding is exploding There are crazy things going on in singapore at the hands of a very talented breeder as well.

Captive bred clarion angels!
 
M

mpedersen

Edwardw771 said:
Has your life changed as a result of winning the MASNA award at our Macna?
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HMM - no one has ever asked me that before. I've told the story many times before...when Steve called me with the news I actually tried, rather insistently, to decline the recogntion and insisted that Wittenrich should've been recognized. That obviously didn't fly, but in the end, I got to introduce Wittenrich myself when he received it the next year! For me, THAT was more of an honor than being recognized myself. I mean, take one look at the list of people recognized, and to this day, I feel I am by far the least qualified among the bunch.

And yet, life has certainly changed since that time. I certainly cannot point directly to being recognized as MASNA Aquarist of the Year in 2009 and say "it's all due to that", but then again, it certainly didn't hurt. And while I still do try to remain "outside" of the aquarium industry, life circumstances have perhaps put me squarely in it yet again (and I'll remain in denial and say that my roles with CORAL and AMAZONAS put me in the PUBLISHING Industry, NOT the Aquarium Industry.

Edwardw771 said:
And from these cool lighting fish.
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No one has asked that either before. I perhaps have, on some levels, grown a thicker skin. I've absolutely certainly become more wise as a result of the project. I still dread the day when the fish dies, and it most certainly WILL die, but with 5 babies now out of the basement with the Lightning patterning, I can truly say that it's "mission accomplished" on some levels. Most certainly, Lightning genetics are not going to vanish without a fight. And as an outspoken critic of "Designer Clownfish", I'm absolutely thrilled to have been a part of working with this wild variation. As someone put it on Reef Central - "Matt - perhaps one of the largest proponent of pure-blood, non-designer fish in the hobby, has now successfully been one of the single largest influences in the designer clownfish industry."

While this statement was meant to show some irony / hipocracy in an attempt to discredit me, I actually hope that I have absolutely had a "large influence" on the "designer clownfish industry", because through this entire project I have spoken repeatedly about the dangers of hybrids, the importance of provenance, and the gaps that exist between conservation-orienated and designer-based breeding. How's that?

Well, the 18 year old with stars in his eyes looks to the Lightning Maroon and the most instantly obvious thing to do with it? Any guesses?

Cross it with a Gold Stripe Maroon Clown to make what....seriously, take a guess?

"GOLD LIGHTNING MAROONS"!!!!

Of course, there's all sorts of issues (and a fair amount of ego) with that thinking. It is a classic example of what I referred to somewhere as the "immaturity of marine fish breeding" at this point in time. Meanwhile, I gotta give credit where it's due; large scale commercial breeders, particularly SA but others too, are seeing the importance of provenance and the natural forms. Whether I have anything to do with that agenda, I'm going to probably say I DON'T. But maybe. Either way, I certainly do have a vision that evolves and changes as knowledge presents itself...I am not all doom on gloom on Picasso percs like I was in 2006.

So how did the Lightning change my life? Immeasurably. It has touched every aspect of my family. It has been the source of both tremendous worry and joy. It was arguably one of the largest gambles I've taken in life.
 
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