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How do I raise my Alk levels

You then go into arguing with me about temps that corals bleach at. You quote stuff and tear it apart. I don't bight because it wasn't something I said. You quoted directly from Walt's post I cut & pasted where you wanted proof of what he said. Besides being funny in itself that to me also meant you agreed with what I had already previously said "I think Walt's a great guy and all but have kind of lost some faith on relying on his info. I remember back when he insisted Fiji is pretty much in the 70s all year round with an occasional rise into the 80s (not talking about the 2000 or similar bleaching events). This goes directly against the reef temp graphs that Bomber (believe it was him) posted (same one I posted above)." I was wrong it wasn't Bomber who uploaded that chart which was my bad. But it didn't matter though who uploaded the data.

"You we not correcting any error who do you think you are fooling."

I can go through the whole damn thread like this if you like? You're not fooling anyone here Boomer with your nonsense. Get over yourself, let it go.

I never said I have any issue with "your" Buch-Park equations

How could you have issue on something you know nothing of. And how coold you ahve issue when these eqautions appear in almost any chemcial oceanography book ? Quite pretending to try and fool others. By the way the Buch-Park equation are a series of equation there are 5 of them. I only posted the CO2 equation on RC. If you saw them on RC then you know it was me posting them.
First of all, you have no idea of my knowledge. You don't know me from Adam. Regardless, it's a pretty stupid thing to even say.

You're talking here like you are responsible for the equazions in question. Where do I see the name "Boomer" in "Buch-Park"??? Could it be that you have nothing to do with them and you use them like everyone else???

Again the "Buch-Park" not boomer formulas didn't have anything to do with anything. You threw that in as spin control when you realized you f-ed up the Dick & Jane formula to cloud the issue.

Do yourself a favor and search through RC with my username and see how many posts I've got in the chemistry forum. Not to damn many and surely under 1% of my posts. I don't go to RC for the chemistry forums as I don't need to. Basically the only time I even see anything there is if a thread catches my eye on the daily what's new list and that's rare. I'm much more into the equipment and threads dealing with experimentation trying to learn as see what others are doing (what works and doesn't) and sharing information on what I've found to work and not work. Basically further the experimentation process.
After seeing all the gross errors you made from trying to correct me

That is you that has made all the gross errors, you were corrected. Do you want me to make up a list.

Get over yourself dude. The list you make is going to be worthless unless you go back and actually read the darn thread and see if you are correcting me or something I quoted. You can prove all you want how you are superior to all the other experts who lead their fields. I knew what you were up to from the start and was very careful in how I answered each part of your questions. Thus having you not "prove" me wrong but the leading experts in the field and well respected people. You dug yourself a deep deep hole my friend. Do you really believe people reading this are going to think all these experts are wrong and you are right?

from the multiple disagreements you have with other authors/expert opinions

Then post them

Go back and read where I POROVED those were errors. The are not disagreements it is FACT they are wrong, simple and pure. You posted stuff form Randy and Eric assuming I wold not disagree with them. They were in error and I proved it.
You didn't prove anything boomer. All you did was interpret things differently but when randy says keeping calcium at 400-450 MAY help then it's kind of hard to interpret that differently for the average person. Remember I never said to do this in the first place. :)
Do I need to refresh your memory ? And the reason you call it a disagreement is because you do not under the issue or facts at hand. You post other peoples work and DO NOT understand it and is why you get yourself in trouble.
Yep, I'm a big old dummy and don't know a darn thing. :) All the people here on the board know how dumb I am and how little I know about aquariums. I gotta get myself enrolled in Boomers Aquariums for Dummy's class to learn how to do 95% water changes. :) Yea I know that wasn't called for but it's kind of funny don't you think?

You're still not getting it. You were trying to set me up but instead I tipped the tables on you. I didn't feel like arguing with you so I let you argue with experts instead to only disprove yourself and show you wanted to argue about anything and everything which of course you have.
Them when I correct it, in the end, your excuse is I posted what they said. Then the next next line down you try to make people think I'm so bad for correcting Randy or Eric.
No not at all. If it's wrong, it's wrong. But when I mention Randy has said blah blah and you argue with that then it's different. That is what that was about, I mentioned what Randy said not that it was my opinion. You're missing this. And the simple fact of the matter is that having higher calcium in lower pH environments MAY be beneficial. You may think it's not beneficial while others may think it is. You are sharing your OPINION not FACT on the matter.
Your are trying to convice people I should not do that, but is fine for you to do that with Walt Smith. Where I had to point out where you were in error. You can't even read a simple post correctly without missing what is actually said.
Again go back and read the thread.
Why don't you come to MACNA next year and I will introduce you to Walt Smith and then you and tell him to his face he does not know what he is talking about.
I don't need to. I'm not compelled to prove he is wrong. I look at the NOAA charts for 7 years of data and can see it with my own eyes. Every other data set I've looked at says the same thing Fiji reefs don't run at mid 70s most of the year, actually never. Why do I need to prove to him he's wrong? Maybe, by god it was only a typo on his part. But the point is I can simply take information he says and do backup research on it and see if it makes sense to me. Same as I do anyone else when I'm in doubt. He has just said things at times that are of equal "out of this world" values that I take what he says with a grain of salt, but investigate non the less.
How's that ! Guess I don't fit that double std of yours. Sure is funny how it is OK, for me in your mind, to say Lou Dell is wrong but not Randy or Eric. Or do you just pick and choose what suits you ? And if Eric or Randy where here they would agree with their error not disagree.
First you shouldn't speak for someone else but only for yourself. Secondly Randy could just as well come in here and say that running calcium at higher levels like 400-450 MAY (get that word boomer) MAY MAY MAY help. Just as he has written in his articles and in posts to people on RC.

OK I was wrong about the Pinpoint monitor working in salt water BIG DEAL. I did say I called them and had checked with them 2 times because I didn't think it was correct.

BTW, just so you know, I contacted them and they say it will work in salt water but requires a different reference solution which they are sending me. I actually think I'm ok anyway because I wasn't using their reference solution anyway. So in a way I wasn't wrong about the pinpoint either as it can be used in SW just needing a different solution.
And when I pointed out the Randy's error, you completely missed his next remark which I had to point out to you, which obviously showed it was an error. You missed your own quote where the error was right there in front of your face.
No clue what you are referring to. Please elaborate if you like.
It is called understand the facts at hand and has nothing to do with opinions or disagreements and you do not see the facts when they are right in front of your face on your own posts. I have to point them out.
Point them out? With what wrong formulas, Omega values, data sets, you own opinion?
And I don't side steep anything it is obvious who does that. And as far that Omega value goes what did I say or are you deliberately leaving out what I said AGAIN to fool people. You are not fooling anyone.
Not sure where you are getting at here. The 6 you posted and I corrected with 4.2 or the fact that is only a guess at a precipitation event anyway? Either way it had nothing to do with anything.
I'm done with this and the issues involved in this thread unless it's on a friendly tone. I'm done with the arguing.

Well, your tone in this post was not friendly so either was mine.
If you had read the few posts before this one you'd have seen I was already chilling. But then you had to go and post the "in your face" post which simply p*issed me off so I responded in kind.

While I'm not stupid and saw what you were up to (other's here know this as fact because I had PMed them saying what you were doing) I was actually mortified that anyone would stupe so low to do such a thing. Doesn't say much about character in my book. I also think it was a poor/stupid thing on the part of who ever put you up to it. But that's just my opinion.

Is it a precedent being set here? P*ss off certain people in the club and a hired thug will TRY and comes after you?

Carlo
 

Phyl

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
Please keep this from getting personal. This has been an interesting thread, but if we resort to name calling and personal attacks I'm afraid we might have to close it... and nobody wants that.
 

Phyl

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
Alright... what I should have said is please end the personal attacks.
 

pgordemer

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
This thread has progressed way beyond any chance of understanding, its just a pissing match between 2 people that both know importants parts of the answer. I repsect both of the authors, but the taste left here now has me just skipping any posts.

Too much drama
 
Ok, back to the original topic. I baked 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 cups of Arm & Hammer baking soda for 1 hour (can't remember the exact amount but it was the correct amount). I use the salifert Alk test kit. I know salifert has had problems with their test kit but their owner says the batch I have does not have any problems and is a good batch. First of all I am having trouble getting my level up to 9dkh. I don't want to add too much at a time but i tseems I'm losing close to 2 dkh a day. Today I got it up to 7.4 dkh and I tested about 6 hours later and it is already down to 6.7. I'll dose again and get it back to 7.4 and because It's been said to do it gradually, by the time I dose again the level will be much lower than from where it was. I am going toget another test kit but until then does anyone have any suggestions. My CA stays around 400 to 410 and I haven't been able to add any of the CA solution to raise it because I'm still working on the Alk. Please help.
 
I hope the hole derailment of the thread didn't get you confused on something. Back on the very first page it was recommended to just use normal baking soda since your pH is at 8.4. The baking soda will typically lower your pH at the time of it's addition. The BAKED baking soda as you have now will raise your pH a LOT at the time of addition into the tank.

Since your at 8.4 pH (from first page) I wouldn't use straight BAKED baking soda since this is only going to raise your pH even more and you're already at the top of the normal pH range.

I had mentioned you can mix both normal baking soda and the BAKED baking soda together at about 6:1 (6 parts normal baking soda to 1 part BAKED baking soda). At roughly this mixture the initial pH isn't changed.

Since it appears you have been adding the BAKED baking soda (what I read into it but you didn't specifically say) I'd check the pH of your tank again. If over 8.4 then just use straight baking soda until it get's back down to 8.4. If you're in the range of 8.2-8.4 then try using the mixture of 6:1.

If I'm reading what you're saying correctly and there isn't anything else going on in the tank simply increase the amount your are dosing to the tank so your addition is more then the tank is using. If you use the mixture this should be especially easier since the pH isn't going to "bounce" nearly as much and larger amounts of buffer can be added.

Are you dosing this by hand or using some form of drip?
What's your pH at now?

Carlo
 
Let me preface by saying that I've only skimmed this thread. There are a couple points worth comment though.

First, coral calcification isn't saturated at 360 ppm. Some corals have been found to be saturated at or slightly above NSW levels while other studies have found that some other species aren't saturated until well above NSW levels (e.g., Marshall and Clode, 2002) but none of them saturate at 360 ppm or thereabouts.

Precipitation is always going on. The higher the saturation state the faster precipitation happens, but is is always happening--there is no threshold above which we dare not tred. Not a whole lot of investigation has been done on the kinetics of inorganic carbon uptake for calcification, but work done thus far suggests that corals by-and-large are not saturated with DIC for calcification (probabably mostly as bicarbonate, though the source of inorganic carbon is somewhat contentious right now). Since DIC is supplied to calcification mostly by an anion pump in the calicoblastic epithelium, eventually this should saturate too, but there's no published data on where this happens or under what conditions. We might get some data about this as a side effect of work I'm currently doing. At my highest TCO2/total alkalinity treatment it looks like my corals are reaching saturation in the conditions I'm using, but I wouldn't want to make any claims at this point.

cj
 
Whoops!

First, coral calcification isn't saturated at 360 ppm. Some corals have been found to be saturated at or slightly above NSW levels while other studies have found that some other species aren't saturated until well above NSW levels (e.g., Marshall and Clode, 2002) but none of them saturate at 360 ppm or thereabouts.


This passage refers to the concentration of calcium...which I negelected to mention ;)
 
The only one that needs to get over themself is you Carlo.

You then go into arguing with me about temps that corals bleach at. You quote stuff and tear it apart. I don't bight because it wasn't something I said

You most certainly did you said Walt Smith does not know what he is talking about

I think Walt's a great guy and all but have kind of lost some faith on relying on his info. I remember back when he insisted Fiji is pretty much in the 70s all year round with an occasional rise into the 80s (not talking about the 2000 or similar bleaching events). This goes directly against the reef temp graphs that Bomber (believe it was him) posted (same one I posted above). That chart completely shows something different. Same thing with a couple of other things you would think Walt would be dead accurate on

You never saw in Walt post on RC, where he said temp ***8-20 ft down**. You left out the temp again WHY ?Bomber agreed with Walt about temps 8-20 ft down in the Keys. Both of these guys have been divers for 20 years on corals reefs. I guess you are right and they don't know what they re talking about. When was the last time you went dving in the Fiji's or Keys ?

I can go through the whole damn thread like this if you like?


OH I hope you do

.Buch-Park.......First of all, you have no idea of my knowledge.

I don't need to you do not know who they are or you would have posted something.

You're talking here like you are responsible for the equazions in question. Where do I see the name "Boomer" in "Buch-Park

You are really grasping for hope and straws now Carlo. And yes I named them that and you already know that and why this remark is so silly.

You threw that in as spin control when you realized you f-ed up the Dick & Jane formula to cloud the issue.

Not at all any you know it for fact and are just unwilling to admit it. It has been explained ah about 3 or 4 times, so no need to repeat myself again. More or your grasping for straws, you are getting desperate.



Thus having you not "prove" me wrong but the leading experts in the field and well respected people. You dug yourself a deep deep hole my friend. Do you really believe people reading this are going to think all these experts are wrong and you are right?

Only two on this thread Randy and Eric who are the others. Looks like you dug another post hole. You completely missed what both Walt and Bomber said who disagree with you and with them living there for 20 years it is not an opinion. Even the links I posted on bleaching do not agree with you and the issue was the Fiji's and bleaching.

It is getting funner by the minute. I only proved Randy wrong due to typo error and Eric wrong as he has the wrong values. I told you it can be proved, Fell free to call any expert on O2 in water or seawater, such as YSI , search the net on O2 in seawater. Go back to the links I gave and all will give you the same answer, which are not what Eric gives. How come Lou Dell agrees with now that I have given proof. You are the one denying FACTS found in almost any seawater manual or on the net so who is wrong here Carlo. It is in error it is as simple as that. We all make errors.


You're still not getting it. You were trying to set me up but instead I tipped the tables on you. I didn't feel like arguing with you so I let you argue with experts instead to only disprove yourself and show you wanted to argue about anything and everything which of course you have.

I think we know who tables are tipped on and why your posts are such Rants. Knowbody is suppose to disagree with Carlo is what your post say and your attitude on may of your post toward others. I guess it is OK for you to do. You don't like and can't handle my challenges with out a rant and carpet bombing of post to try to confuse readers.

"Them when I correct it, in the end, your excuse is I posted what they said. Then the next next line down you try to make people think I'm so bad for correcting Randy or Eric."

More misleading this only has to do with an error made by Randy and Eric. Different Ca++, Mg++ or alk are all much of an opinion and has nothing to do with fact to a point.

and has nothing to do with this below. You are now mixing up things. Below is an option and YOU are trying to force me to agree with this option.

No not at all. If it's wrong, it's wrong. But when I mention Randy has said blah blah and you argue with that then it's different. That is what that was about, I mentioned what Randy said not that it was my opinion. You're missing this. And the simple fact of the matter is that having higher calcium in lower pH environments MAY be beneficial. You may think it's not beneficial while others may think it is. You are sharing your OPINION not FACT on the matter

Why don't you come to MACNA next year and I will introduce you to Walt Smith and then you and tell him to his face he does not know what he is talking about.

I don't need to. I'm not compelled to prove he is wrong. I look at the NOAA charts for 7 years of data and can see it with my own eyes


You are still lost on this as Bomber has pointed out on your won link .sssheeish. Your are still saying Walt Smith does not know what he is talking about. I posted a link to NOAA plots, did you even look at them. I see you have no comment


First you shouldn't speak for someone else but only for yourself. Secondly Randy could just as well come in here and say that running calcium at higher levels like 400-450 MAY (get that word boomer) MAY MAY MAY help. Just as he has written in his articles and in posts to people on RC.

I would not disagree with that. And I have not seen in any reef tank evidence where that MAY do that. It is like the argument on Sr. There are allot of MAYS in this hobby. And Chris recent post sheds allot more light on it, where elevated Ca++ May really appear to help at least in the lab tests. Are you happy now ? I believe in data not MAY or hearsay.

Hmm, no comment on my remark of you copying/ pasting others people posts/work and claiming as if they are your own. How come ?


Your are trying to convice people I should not do that, but is fine for you to do that with Walt Smith. Where I had to point out where you were in error. You can't even read a simple post correctly without missing what is actually said.

Again go back and read the thread.

I don't' need to I have done it so may times already and pointed out on this thread so many times.

OK I was wrong about the Pinpoint monitor working in salt water BIG DEAL. I did say I called them and had checked with them 2 times because I didn't think it was correct

I'm not not "picking" on you for that at all, you were mislead, many others have been to. So knock off the rant on the PinPoint.


And when I pointed out the Randy's error, you completely missed his next remark which I had to point out to you, which obviously showed it was an error. You missed your own quote where the error was right there in front of your face.

"No clue what you are referring to. Please elaborate if you like."


The quote you gave from Randy that said "SA" would more than likely only raise the pH. Your next quote from Randy "SA" will raise both the Alk and pH. You missed that, which shows Randy made an error. How could SA not effect Alk ? If that was the case Randy or I would be recommending it to rise the pH and maybe not Kalk. Why would Randy or I recomemd SA if both the Alk and Ph are low . If it had not effect on Alk whb would we say that ? I said it is easy to prove with a glass of water or go to jdiecks Reef Chemistry calculator. ~ 1 tsp of SA will raise the Alk ~ 1.6 higher than BS. SA has 2 Alk units and not 1 Alk unit like BS. You yourself then seemed to agreed with that. So it is obvious to me that you agree Randy was in error. How come is it through out this thread it is OK for you to disagree with known people but haven forbid if I do. Called a double std.

It is called understand the facts at hand and has nothing to do with opinions or disagreements and you do not see the facts when they are right in front of your face on your own posts. I have to point them out.

"Point them out? "


I already have in this post again. Randy's, Eric's' error and you misreading Walt Smith and Bomber.

If you had read the few posts before this one you'd have seen I was already chilling. But then you had to go and post the "in your face" post which simply p*issed me off so I responded in kind.

Chilling yes but still a rant, you could not let it go. So I decided not to either.

(other's here know this as fact because I had PMed them saying what you were doing)

You PM them what I was doing ? I posted what I was doing. I said it was my intent do to treat you the way have treated others here. I guess it is OK for Carlo to do it. Again a double std. Crap you even posted on it and confessing, you had not treated people so good but it was not your intent. And since you want to bring up PM's that one you sent me after I was here less than 5 min with no post p*issed me off. So lets not be waving the flag. Your attitude here on this forum, from what I have seen, is YOU think you are the all high and mighty. That is how you come across.

This whole thing really rose for the post on Walt Smith and then went way out of line. We are now both talking like a couple of jerks/knotheads which is obvious, not to mention talking circle's. I'm final no more post at least to you on this thread at all. You can feel free to say what you want. I don't know about you, but I don't' hold grudges par one person and that is not you by a long shot. All of my harshness of mine only stems from this thead an no others here.
 
No worries. A bit on the topic as per Carlo's request:

There are 4 species of inorganic carbon that occur in water. They are CO2 (aq), H2CO3 (aq), HCO3- (aq), and CO3-- (aq). The concentration of all of these species is written as SIGMA CO2, or TCO2 and descrbed as "total CO2." At sea water pH only a tiny portion of this occurs as CO2, however (< 1%).

Total alkalinity is the sum of the concentration of all the bases in sea water that can neutralize H+ from HCl down to the carbonic acid endpoint (pH ~ 4). Most of the alkalinity in standard sea water comes from bicarbonate (89.8%), carbonate (6.7%) and borate (2.9%) with the remainder provided by minor species (MgOH+, OH-, PO4---, HPO4--, silicate, etc.). So, most of the alkalinity in sea water is provided by the carbonate system (bicarbonate and carbonate).

Bicarbonate (HCO3-) has a single - charge and can therefore accept only 1 H+. One mole of HCO3- provides 1 equivalent of alkalinity. Carbonate (CO3--) has a 2- charge and can accept 2 H+. One mole of CO3-- provides 2 equivalents of alkalinity. Bicarbonate:carbonate in standard sea water occur in about a 25:1 ratio by concentration and provide 1 and 2 eq of alkalinity/ 1 mol in solution, respectively. Each also provides 1 mol TCO2 / 1 mol in solution. Therefore, we have a ratio of alkalinity:TCO2 of slightly higher than 1. The ratio is about 1.13:1 alkalinity:TCO2 since carbonate provides 2 eq of alk for every 1 mol of TCO2. Higher alkalinity pulls pH higher while higher TCO2 pushes pH lower.

If you add bicarbonate to your tank you are changing the alk:TCO2 ratio in your tank. Since the tank (assuming everything is like standard sea water) will have an alk:TCO2 ratio of 1.13:1, like we said, while bicarbonate has an alk:TCO2 ratio of 1:1. Thus, you will slightly skew your ratio in favor of TCO2, resulting in a slight drop in pH. If you add carbonate you cause a bigger change to the tank. Since carbonate has an alk:TCO2 ratio of 2:1 you are affecting a bigger change from your 1.13:1 ratio, and hence causing a larger change in pH (an increase in this case).

pH = Alk x CO2 makes no sense to me as a conceptual model. This would suggest that pH varies positively with alkalinity AND TCO2, which it does not. pH = Alk/TCO2 makes sense as a conceptual model because pH does vary positively with alkalinity and negatively with TCO2. The thing to understand here is that these are ONLY concpetual models. You cannot possibly calculate these parameters from these equations. The relationships are much, much more complicated than this.


cj
 
Just a quick comment on temperature:

SST is usually a very good descriptor of temp. in the water column down to at least 30 m in the tropics, and usually doesn't drop by more than a 1 - 2 F down to about 50 m or so. SST info from satellites are integrated over largish areas (Pathfinder over a 4 km2 area, which is much smaller than previous info). Otherwise SST measurments are often taken by buoys or direct sampling (dipping thermometers) and are taken a meter or two down in the water column. You don't usually see real temp. stratification except in very enclosed areas, and in that case usually you see a very hot surface layer (90's+) over a water column that's a temp. similar or slightly higher than the surrounding ocean.

Fiji is relatively cool compared to most reefs. They don't usually get over about 84 F in the summer, though 82 - 84 F is a pretty normal summer temp. In winter they can be anywhere from 75 - 80 F in a normal year. During this decade they've definitely seen an obvious increase in temp., so temp. records since about the late 90's give somewhat deceptively high means. The Keys get warm during the summer and cold during the winter. A sustained temp. of 85 - 86 F isn't unusual in the Keys during the summer. During the winter they'll drop down into the high 60's and low 70's, but can fall as low as the 50's.

In captivity I don't see any reason to keep reef animals below about 78 F under normal circumstances. Likewise, I don't see any reason to keep them above 84 F under normal circumstances. For most reefs, I'd shoot for a mean temp of 80 - 82 F. Higher temps. of 84 - 85 could be very useful for someone wanting to get reproduction in reef animals, but for most of us I don't see any point in running on the warmer end like that.

cj
 

mikem

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
Chris. Welcome to this forum and thanks for any additional info on the subject.
 
Nice to see you Chris. And sorry for all this arguing nonsense we have created.

I looked up and read that pdf abstract a nice piece. Don't know why I have not seen it before or others for that manner.

pH = Alk x CO2 makes no sense to me as a conceptual model

Of course it makes no sense that is why I called it Dick & Jane, as most don't want me to elaborate on it. In short if you know the Alk and CO2 you can calculate the pH. It is a function of, CA, Salinity, temp., pK1 and pK2. I could have said pH = CO2 + Alk or pH = CO2/ Alk. It is obvious you can't get pH from these. Carlo has you on a wild goose chase for nothing and I'm sorry for it. I have many posts on the CO2 carbonate system on RC on the chem forum and elsewhere. So sorry you were dragged in to this.


What you have posted I have posted similar may times.

You cannot possibly calculate these parameters from these equations

And I never said you could. You are being grossly mislead. I have explained this to Carlo many time here on what I meant and he knows it, so sorry again.

And yes you can calculate these parameters if you know various parmeters. This is shown in most seawater chemistry books. Look it up in Millero. There is even a program out on it that many have used on the chem forum on RC which I have posted and got from Craig Bingman long ago. Program or not you get the same answers I give below. I have also had phone conversations on this issue with Millero, the worlds leading authority on this subject.

Here is an example on CO2 calculation. Since pH can easily measured as Alk and CO2, CO3- and HCO3- can not so many calculate it. It is a big part of Millero's book and his research, especially calculating CO2. pK1 and pK2 talbes are found in most seawater chems books. And these equation are very accurate and is why they are used. One can also argue should we be going by pHnbs or pHsws

CO2 = CA *pH / pK1 [1 +2pK2/pH]

One for HCO3-

HCO3- = CA / 1 + 2pK2/pH]

And CA = TAlk - Borate Alk

And if you pull out the pH on the right side of the equation and put it on the left side of the equation you can calculate pH. The issue with seawater is you can not measure CO2 with any normal means other than a pCO2 probe. Millero, Randy or Habib themselves will tell you you can do this we have had discusion on it may times.


These are found in most chem books.

I have posted results of such equations on this thread. Did you miss them :)

pH = 8.3
Alk = 2.5 meq/ l

CO2 = 0.41 ppm

pH = 8.3
Alk = 3.0 meq/ l

CO2 = 0.50 ppm

pH = 8.3
Alk = 4 meq/ l

CO2 = 0.66 ppm



To make it easier for some I have a posted this on RC and elsewhere a few times.
Ratio pCO2 For NSW


Total Alkalinity (AT)
(mEq/l) . . . 2.0 .. 2.5 .. 2.6 .. 3.0 .. 3.5 .. 4.0 .. 4.5 .. 5.0 ...5.5 ...6.0
(dKH) . . . ...5.6 .. 7.0 .. 7.3 .. 8.4 .. 9.8 . 11.2 . 12.4 . 14.0 . 15.4 . 16.8
pH __________________________________________________ _________
7.7----------3.0.... 3.7 .. 3.9 .. 4.5 .. 5.3 .. 6.0 .. 6.8 ...7.5 ...8.3 ...9.1
7.8----------2.3.. ..2.9 .. 3.0 .. 3.5 .. 4.1 .. 4.7 .. 5.3 ...5.8 ...6.4 ...7.O
7.9----------1.8.... 2.2 .. 2.3 .. 2.7 .. 3.1 .. 3.6 .. 4.0 ...4.5 ...5.0 ...5.4
8.0----------1.3.... 1.7 .. 1.8 .. 2.0 .. 2.4 .. 2.7 .. 3.1 ...3.4 ...3.8 ...4.1
8.1----------1.0.... 1.3 .. 1.3 .. 1.6 .. 1.8 .. 2.1 .. 2.3 ...2.6 ...2.9 ...3.1
8.2----------0.8.... 1.0 .. 1.0 .. 1.2 .. 1.4 .. 1.7 .. 1.8 ...2.0 ...2.2 ...2.4
8.3----------0.6.... 0.7 .. 0.7 .. 0.7 .. 1.0 .. 1.2 .. 1.3 ...1.5 ...1.6 ...1.8
8.4----------0.4.... 0.5 .. 0.5 .. O.6 .. 0.7 .. 0.9 .. 1.0 ...1.1 ...1.2 ...1.3
8.5----------0.3.. ..O.4 .. 0.4 .. 0.5 .. 0.5 .. 0.6 .. 0.7 ...0.8 ...0.9 ...0.9
8.6----------0.2 ....0.3 .. 0.3 ...0.3 ...0.4 ...0.4 .. 0.5....0.6 ...0.6 ...0.7

~ CO2 ppm = pCO2 x 0.56



And this is not the Dick & Jane stuff above. Dick & Jane meaning, a comment with no real meaning, which has also been explained to Carlo more than once, so sorry again you got draggged into this.
 
Thanks again Chris


For most reefs, I'd shoot for a mean temp of 80 - 82 F

Pretty much what I posted as a limit, not need to attempt higher temps.

Do you agree with this post or not by Walt Smith and Bomber is the issue on SST. Walt has lived there for almost 20 years or so. And some SST can even go much lower than 50 M.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5089918#post5089918

Here are the know SST for Fiji by NOAA, which I posted earlier.

http://coralreefwatch.noaa.gov/satellite/current/sst_series_fijibeqa_cur.html

http://coralreefwatch.noaa.gov/satellite/archive/sst_series_fijibeqa_path.html
 
Nice to see you too. I'll do my best to stay out of the...well, whatever it is. As I said, I only skimmed the thread anyway ;)

pH = Alk x CO2 makes no sense to me as a conceptual model

Of course it makes no sense that is why I called it Dick & Jane, as most don't want me to elaborate on it. In short if you know the Alk and CO2 you can calculate the pH. It is a function of, CA, Salinity, temp., pK1 and pK2. I could have said pH = CO2 + Alk or pH = CO2/ Alk. It is obvious you can't get pH from these. Carlo has you on a wild goose chase for nothing and I'm sorry for it. I have many posts on the CO2 carbonate system on RC on the chem forum and elsewhere. So sorry you were dragged in to this.


Ok, but that is just too far a departure for my tastes. pH = TA/TCO2 as a model suggests to me the general manner in which they covary. pH = TA x TCO2 just gives my brain fits. Too many box models ;)

You cannot possibly calculate these parameters from these equations

And I never said you could. You are being grossly mislead. I have explained this to Carlo many time here on what I meant and he knows it, so sorry again.

And yes you can calculate these parameters if you know various parmeters. This is shown in most seawater chemistry books. Look it up in Millero. There is even a program out on it that many have used on the chem forum on RC which I have posted and got from Craig Bingman long ago. Program or not you get the same answers I give below. I have also had phone conversations on this issue with Millero, the worlds leading authority on this subject.

Here is an example on CO2 calculation. Since pH can easily measured as Alk and CO2, CO3- and HCO3- can not so many calculate it. It is a big part of Millero's book and his research, especially calculating CO2. pK1 and pK2 talbes are found in most seawater chems books. And these equation are very accurate and is why they are used. One can also argue should we be going by pHnbs or pHsws

CO2 = CA *pH / pK1 [1 +2pK2/pH]

One for HCO3-

HCO3- = CA / 1 + 2pK2/pH]

And CA = TAlk - Borate Alk

And if you pull out the pH on the right side of the equation and put it on the left side of the equation you can calculate pH. The issue with seawater is you can not measure CO2 with any normal means other than a pCO2 probe. Millero, Randy or Habib themselves will tell you you can do this we have had discusion on it may times.


Yes, yes. I wrote that not directed at you, but at the other folks reading that might not comprehend that this was merely a conceptual device, and not an actual and legitimate mathematical relationship.

As for using pHNBS vs. pHSWS, or pHT or pHF, the only thing I'll say is that pHNBS probably doesn't make sense for sea water and isn't what we should be using, and that I really don't trust electrodes as far as I can throw them anyway. For sea water I like m-cresol purple and a good spec. for accurate pH measurements. Even very good, very expensive pH meters/probes calibrated with good buffers I don't trust to be terribly accurate (not nearly as accurate as m-cp). For my own work I use an Orion pH meter w/ a ROSS electrode for in situ measurements, but only use this as a quick check for delta pH. For accurate measures I run samples with m-cp and calculate pH according to Clayton and Byrne (1993). That gives me pHT because that's what their equations are calibrated to. Of course, one can convert...

These are found in most chem books.

I have posted results of such equations on this thread. Did you miss them


Ha, no ;) My thesis deals with the effect of ocean acidification on coral calcification, so these are equations for which I am intimately acquainted...perhaps too intimately ;)

For this kind of stuff I really like work by Millero and Dickson, and Aquatic Chemistry by Stumm and Morgan is seminal. For calculating things co2sys by Ernie Lewis and Doug Wallace. Tell me you aren't still doing those calculations by hand ;)

cj
 
Thanks again Chris


For most reefs, I'd shoot for a mean temp of 80 - 82 F

Pretty much what I posted as a limit, not need to attempt higher temps.

Do you agree with this post or not by Walt Smith and Bomber is the issue on SST. Walt has lived there for almost 20 years or so. And some SST can even go much lower than 50 M.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5089918#post5089918

Here are the know SST for Fiji by NOAA, which I posted earlier.

http://coralreefwatch.noaa.gov/satellite/current/sst_series_fijibeqa_cur.html

http://coralreefwatch.noaa.gov/satellite/archive/sst_series_fijibeqa_path.html


I would not disagree with Walt per se, but I would suggest that he is somewhat mistaken. Temps. in Fiji (and the rest of the region) drop down to the mid-70's during the coolest weather, but most of the year are warmer than that (I'm assuming 'mid-70's' is like 74/75/76 F).

I'd disagree with Bomber. SST are useful for questions like these precisely because they give a accurate temp. readings for the water mass down to a fairly deep depth. Water temp. isn't significantly different from satellite SST readings vs. buoy readings (1 or 2 m deep) or going and measuring with a thermometer at 5, 10, 20 m.

As the NOAA data you link shows, in Fiji the normal summertime high is in the neighborhood of 82 - 84 (though it has been higher and accompanied with bleaching in recent years) and the normal wintertime low is around 75 - 80 F. The temp. in Fiji doesn't usually drop below 24 C, but usually does get down to about 25 C, and doesn't normally rise over 29 C, but does normally get up to 28.5 or 29 C for a few months. When the water hits 29.5 or 30 C for weeks, things go bad...

cj
 
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