Looking for advice on parameters

[pgordemer]

Something doesn't sounds right with the testing.

First item though is your RODI should be ZERO. Period. Sound like its time for DI Change. 2-4 TDS would be OK post membrane and before DI, but after DI it should be ZERO.

I use reef crystals and have for years. I am relatively new to reef, but running FOWLR for almost 10 years. Reef Crystals for me has always mixed to these numbers: (and many people have had the same numbers and I recheck every time I open a new barrel)

Based on SG of 1.026 and a temp of 78
CA: 420
DKH: 12
MG: 1350

 

[Carlo]

Matt,

I'd still like to see you get your alk up a bit. If I've got my numbers right I think you are at 7.4 dKH at present. You should have roughly 100g of water in your system and 5 gallons change is 5% (pretty easy one there). So after the water change you should be roughly at 7.75 dKH and I'd like to see you at 8.5 (not to high or too low).
(7.4*.95)+(14.4*.05)=7.03+0.72=7.75

Since you mentioned you have B-Ionic 2 part that you purchased but still haven't used I did a quick calculation using that. Going from 7.75 to 8.5 dKH with 100g of water will take 36.1 mL of the buffer portion ONLY. I wouldn't touch the calcium part as your calcium looks good.

Now I know you are hesitant to add anything to the tank but yet you did purchase the product so I know you intend to use it. Here is what I'd suggest. Don't do anything on the day you do the water change since you will get a small alk boost from the water change. Then the next day and each day afterward for one week add 5ml to your sump in the evening when the lights go out. This isn't very much at all and if you add it each and every day for 7 days you would be at approximately 8.5 dKH at the end of the week which is a good all around number. You would be adding it slowly to your system so there is no chance of any type of overdose and at the same time it will help you to feel better/easier about starting to dose the 2 part (right now there is no need for the calcium portion however).

About half way through the week you can give us an update on the Calcium and Alk numbers from your tank and we can see if it's time to start with the calcium portion or if you can do with out it (very likely) for a while yet. We can also very the 5mL dose and make sure it's not to little or to much.

What do you say, sound reasonable? Ready to give it a shot or do you still want to hold off for a while? I understand if you want to wait since you don't like the idea of dosing anything but for most/many of us we don't have a choice and have to or our corals would suffer. I think once you start to dose a buffer you'll start feeling "easier" about it and it won't seem like such a big deal since you can easily test the tank and see the results withing a couple of hours. I figured this would be an easy way to start with a target value almost everyone would agree is good/OK regardless if you are part of the low or high alk camp (way of running your alk in the tank) since 8.5 dKH is right in the middle.

Ready to try it?

Carlo

PS Phil, he isn't far off from your numbers. The differences could be from refractometer calibration or hydrometer differences at different temps or just from different test kits. Phil what Mg test kit are you using? I don't typically ever see Mg come in that high with RC using LaMotte or Hach kits.

I do agree with the DI cartridge needing replacement at it should be zero or one but nothing higher. When your TDS starts to creep up it's actually worse then it sounds because some things don't test out on a TDS meter and they are usually the first get by when the DI is exhausted.

 

[pgordemer]

Phil what Mg test kit are you using? I don't typically ever see Mg come in that high with RC using LaMotte or Hach kits.

I use LaMotte for almost everything, and I do a recheck with Salifert if something appears wrong before I change anything. Since we have a lab in our Civil Enginerring office and we do soil perculation tests, it is very easy and cheap to get Lamotte testing stuff from our Lab supply company.

 

[mfisher2112]

Carlo: At this point, I'm more concerned about the accuracy of my tests. If I could be sure my tests were correct, I would be more likely to consider dosing something. Until I can verify where my numbers are, I'm not sure I want to risk dosing something against inaccurate numbers.

I haven't calibrated the refractometer, but am going to do that next.

At this point, I think I'm more on a mission to get accurate trustworthy numbers. I know home test kits can never be perfectly accurate, they sure as heck can be more accurate and consistent than what I'm getting now.

Is Lamotte a trustworthy test kit?

 

[Carlo]

I agree with you Matt.

However, I don't think we ever know EXACTLY what are true number are. Think of our test kits as a baseline.

Phil is using a really good test kit (one of/if not the best) and comes up with 12 dKH and you came up with 11.4 dKH. While either of you could be off a bit on salinity/sg the fact that you both get very close results indicates you are in the ball park and not out in left field or anything like that.

Going a step further and assuming you kit is good and testing pretty accurate for what we care about anyway the tank at 7.4 is a bit low. I did take the uncomfortable feeling you have into consideration when suggesting only raising it to 8.5 dKH which is middle of the road. Your test kit would have to be really bad for the 8.5 to be too high or to low. BUT with 7.4 let say your test kit is reading a bit high. That would mean your tank is really on the low side. See what I'm getting at? Overall regardless of how accurate your particular kit is the 8.5 number is a solid number because it has room above and below it for play. But the 7.4 number really doesn't.

The trick with alkalinity is to make changes slowly when raising them and trying to keep the rate of change in the 1 dKH per day. My previous suggestion was approximately a 1 dKH rise but over 7 days so you can see this is plenty safe.

Carlo

PS just trying to "gently" twist your arm a bit in case you didn't notice.

 

[mfisher2112]

I see where you're going. I'll take that under advisement.

But, re-read my "new batch" test, the alk was 14.4 dkH, not 11.4. Which is one of the scary numbers with a PH testing so low, and calcium so high. Makes no sense to me.

And I don't have a mag test kit yet because apparently noone has anything in stock.

 

[Carlo]

Phil what Mg test kit are you using? I don't typically ever see Mg come in that high with RC using LaMotte or Hach kits.

I use LaMotte for almost everything, and I do a recheck with Salifert if something appears wrong before I change anything. Since we have a lab in our Civil Enginerring office and we do soil perculation tests, it is very easy and cheap to get Lamotte testing stuff from our Lab supply company.

I apologize Phil, I was thinking IO not RC when I said mine never tested that high. 1350 sound spot on for RC. I'm jealous of your ability to snag the kits cheap. Nice work related perk.

Carlo

 

[Carlo]

I see where you're going. I'll take that under advisement.

But, re-read my "new batch" test, the alk was 14.4 dkH, not 11.4. Which is one of the scary numbers with a PH testing so low, and calcium so high. Makes no sense to me.

And I don't have a mag test kit yet because apparently noone has anything in stock.

Oh shoot, I read that wrong. That makes sense why Phil posted what he posted. Ignore my previous response on them being in the same ballpark. That's not the same ballpark and cause for alarm either in the test kit or the salt itself. I'm not sure I'd use the salt (if you haven't already) without knowing if it's your test kit or the salt that has the issue.

If it's the kit itself then that could indicate your tank is lower then we think. If the kit is good but the salt is bad I myself would not use it but I'd take the bag/bucket along with a water sample back to the store and show them and get another. The salt could have been mixed wrong or there was some type of production error (wouldn't be the first time).

The plot thickens.

I'm tired as all heck (long, long stressful day) so I'm getting a drink and passing out (hopefully). I need to stop posting tonight as I've foobared two message almost back to back in this thread. Need sleep.

But yea, definitely try and get it figured out if it's the salt or the kit that's off. Might not be a bad idea to take the new salt water sample along with a tank water sample to a LFS and get a second opinion. Of course with the way things have been going for you, you'll probably end up with a 3rd set of numbers that don't match what you have.

Later,
Carlo

 

[mfisher2112]

Ok, I have been testing pretty regularly, and this is what I got tonight.

Temp: 80
Salinity: 1.024 (a skimmer issue dropped this a bit, but it will come back up, I've had this happen before and I just top off with small amounts of pre-mixed salt water until the salinity stabilizes, usually takes a couple of days)
Alk: 5.8 dkH
PH: 8.04 with pinpoint meter, 8.1 with ATC handheld meter, and 8.1 with salifert test kit.
Nitrate: between 50 and 100 mark on salifert test kit (which seems to have been the most accurate so far)
Calcium: 390-400

Apparently the higher alk reading I got the other day was an eroneous test result, as I am testing back down in the 5+ range.

I finally bit the bullet and dosed the Bionic 2 part part 1 alk buffer only.

Running under the assumption that I am at approximately 100 gallons (which is probably pretty close) and using Carlo's estimate of dose assuming it to be light as he knows my hesitance to dose anything, and the directions on the bottle, I did the following:

Dosed 5 ml SLOWLY into the display in a high current area (namely directly over the Hydor #3 ) at about 6pm.

At about 8pm, I dosed another 5ml the same way after testing to be sure I wasn't seeing any immediately spikes in numbers.

I am monitoring the PH meter, and will test alk again this evening before calling it a night.

I also plan to pick up some more test kits tomorrow for comparison, as well as a new bucket of salt to be sure the salt isn't bad (I've had it long enough that I wouldn't try to return it, besides the fact that I've used about 3/4 of the bucket at this point anyway, doesn't seem right to try to return it).

I think I am going to pick up both Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals and mix up seperate buckets and see what kinds of results I get.

Will keep you posted.

 

[mfisher2112]

Some interesting info to ponder:

Redid the tests on the 5 gallon bucket of reef crystals water after letting it sit for several days with the power head and heater running.

Temp 78.6
Salinity: 1.026
PH: 7.8
Alk: 12.8 dkH
Calc: 420

The PH of straight tap water is 5.7
TDS of straight tap water is over 250

PH of ro/di water is 5.0
TDS of ro/di water is 2 to 3

Nitrate on straight tap water is 5
Nitrate on ro/di water is 0

I rechecked alk on the tank before lights out, still testing 5.8
PH still reading 8.1 with ATC and 8.04 with pinoint
Calcium still reading between 390 and 400.

Will see what results are tomorrow.

 

[Carlo]

5.8 dKH is pretty low. For 100g it will take 178.5 mL to get the level up to 9.5. To get it up to what I'd consider the minimum alk level of 7 dKH will require 57.9 mL. To raise dKH by one full point will require 48.2 mL just for reference. One full point is about the most I would suggest raising it in one day. If it were me I would dose at least 30 mL per day (between morning and evening) for 2 or 3 days to get the levels back up into safety and take the stress of the corals.

Just for reference to raise the Calcium from 400 to 420 will require 125 mL (4.2 oz) of solution.

It sounds/seems like your tank is starting to use the calcium and buffers more quickly then you can keep up with using water changes only. Regardless of your preference to dose or not I think you've officially joined the club.

Carlo

 

[mfisher2112]

Finally got ahold of a magnesium test kit today. Sheesh! You might think the things were made of gold or something! The ONLY one I could find was by Serra.

Tests today show:

PH: 8.1
Salinity: 1.024
Alk: 6.4 dkH
Magnesium: 1020

I did dose another 15ml of the bionic today. I'm a fan of slow and steady wins the race. If I see slow inclines in the alk, I can always increase the doseage slowly. I'd rather not have to react to overdosing. 5.8 to 6.4 is a pretty significant incline in one day. If the 15ml shows the same increase tomorrow, then I am on to something, if it does not, then I will increase the dose slightly.

As for the magnesium, isn't this a bit low? My understanding is that it should be between 1200 and 1400, correct?

I'm starting to wonder if that is the cause, and I should be dosing a magnesium supplement as opposed to the alk supplement.

See, this is EXACTLY what I was trying to avoid. Before you know it, the tank cabinet will be lined with freaking bottles of miscellaneous potentially dangerous chemicals... Ug...

 

[Carlo]

For the most part they are unrelated.

The big three you'll find out you need to dose on a regular/semi-regular basis are:
Alkalinity Buffer
Calcium
Magnesium

It wouldn't hurt to start dosing 10 mL of the calcium portion of the 2 part solution since you're about 125 mL short of being at 420 ppm.

Your magnesium is way low as it should be around 1300 give or take 50 ppm. Normally you would want to raise it about 100 ppm per day (no more) but I'd recommend you raise it 50 ppm each day instead so you feel more comfortable do it.

There are many good products for raising magnesium. However, read the labels and make sure it's not just Magnesium Sulfate (heptahydrate) nor just magnesium chloride (hexahydrate) but a mixture of both hopefully balanced properly.

Just to give you an idea of how much product you need. To raise 100 gallons of water from 1020 to 1300 would take:
Warner Marine ReefPure Balanced Magnesium: 1333.3 ml; 45 fl oz
Kent Tech M: 1514.3 ml; 51.2 fl oz
ESV B-Ionic Magnesium: 2800 ml; 94.6 fl oz
SeaChem Reef Advantage Magnesium (Dry): 266 tsps; 1330 grms; 46.9 oz
Salifert Liquid Magnesium: 4239.6 ml; 143.3 fl oz
I don't know what's in each of them so these aren't a recommendation. I just wanted you to know roughly how much of these products you will need to raise your levels. This way you can purchase the proper sized container.

BTW, do a magnesium check on your salt next time you make some up. I wouldn't be surprised if it's low. If it is fact low maybe check out other salt mixes so you don't have this much of a problem in the future.

Carlo

 

[mfisher2112]

Ok, so I figured I'd update this a bit.

I didn't like the way the bionic was adjusting the water. It is definitely a crutch. I dosed for 4 days straight and was getting steady increases. I did a little test and skipped two days. Right back down it went. I got to the point where I could look at the PH meter and pretty much guess where the alk was. And I was right with in a small margin of error almost every time. But, it was not steadying out, and the PH was bouncing more than I like to see it bounce.

So, I tried a new experiment. (at least new for me, I'm sure thousands have done it before)

I made up salt water in 5 gallon buckets. Two perculating, and one on deck in front of the tank. Then I took an empty bucket and put the outlet hose on the skimmer. I kicked the skimmer up to start skimming extremely wet. I dialed the skimmer until I got a steady "drip..drip..drip..drip" from the skimmer into the bucket. So, essentially, I was removing about 5 gallons between the skimmer and evaporation per day.

Because the salinity was low at around 1.023, the mag was low at around 1280, and the alk was bouncing between 5 and 7 depending on whether I dosed or not, and the PH would climb to 8.2 with dosing, and drop back down to 8.05 or so if I skipped dosing, and the calcium was steady at about 440, I started topping off with salt water instead of RO/DI.

This took about 5 or 6 days, so it isn't something that was drastic or dramatic.

All in all, I replaced about 30 to 35 gallons of water with fresh ro/di + reef crystals.

Salinity is up to 1.025
Alk is about 7.2 (testing between 7.0 and 7.4)
Calcium is 440
and I have yet to test Mag, but I am assuming based on the 1450 mag results from the fresh water (test done over 5 buckets, results were between 1400 and 1500) that is up as well.

I added a filter sock which I have been changing daily, and I put a pre-filter pad in between two of the baffels just before the return pump, which I also change daily.

I changed out my carbon in my reactor for fresh, and took the phosphate reactor offline temporarily.

I pruned out about 3/4 of the chaeto in my sump. That killed me to get rid of that, but, I am already seeing new growth on the chaeto.

I also resumed feeding frozen every 3 days, with a small portion of garlic enriched marine flake every two days to help get the nitrates under control.


So far, the water is clearer than it has ever been, the skimmer continues to pull buckets of "green" water out of the tank without any liquid food additives and with feeding frozen every 3 days, with flake the day before.

I am still topping off with 1.026 reef crystals+ro/di mixed water that is allowed to sit for 48 hours with pump and heater running to keep the temp at about 78 degrees. At the rate I have set now, I'm doing about 3 1/2 to 4 gallons of water change a day (which is a combination of the wet skimming into the bucket and the normal evaporation).

Once I get the salinity up to a steady 1.026 (which will probably only take another couple of days) I should have the other parameters pretty much in check, and will begin daily testing for about a week to see what goes down where and when.

It seems the wet skimming method of water change is working, and I have been able to do a much larger water change spread out over many days instead of trying to undertake the monumental task of changing the water directly in large "chunks".

I will keep everyone posted. Thanks for everyone's input, it has been extremely helpful! I always have to know "why" something does what it does, so being able to put everyone's suggestions and experience together with the things I have been testing out here has been critical to getting the tank to what I consider it's best in over a year!

 

[Carlo]

I definitely like your wet skimming method and as anyone who went down my basement on Sunday can tell you I do the same thing but pretty aggressive.

Overall I think it's an excellent way to get water changes done and to keep up with all the trace element additions but you'll probably find you'll be back to dosing an Alk supplement a day or two after you get your salinity in check.

Once the salinity is correct you won't be adding as much new salt water and the amount of buffer won't be added as much. So keep an eye on that so it doesn't drop on you.

What you described is pretty normal and why people usually have to add a buffer daily. Now you know why people talk about dosing pumps and whatnot.

Another approach you might want to look into is using a kalk drip. This can be a low cost way of maintaining alk and calcium.

It's good to see you experimenting to see what works best for you. Keep us updated on what happens when you get your salinity back to where you want it to be.

Carlo