My fish are dying...:(

[Ultimate Corals]

Hi All,

I'm having trouble keeping certain fish in my tank. I have a 34 gallon AquaEuro AIO and can grow corals like crazy but I'm having a real problem keeping fish. The tank has been up for 5-6 months now. I originally had a kole tang and 2 damsels (green chromis and azure). All of a sudden the kole got sick and died. My parameters continued to stay perfect so i did a 10 gallon water change and continued to monitor the parameters. Everything stayed fine so i chocked it up to just a sick fish. A week later i picked up a mated pair of Clarkii clowns that were great for the first couple days but I wake up this morning and the male is laying on the sand (still breathing but very heavy) and the female doesn't look much better. As of last night they were both eating brine but i tried feeding this morning and there not interested. I've posted some pics of her at

http://photobucket.com/hcker99

http://photobucket.com/hcker99


I'm not sure what to do anymore. I think they may be to far gone but i'm not sure.

The odd thing about all of this is my CUC (including a starfish and cleaner shrimp) are all thriving and same for the corals. I figured if something was off in the tank the shrimp would be the first to go.


Please let me know your thoughts on what i can do to help my clowns and prevent this from happening again.

Is it possible that there is a disease in the tank that is only affecting certain fish?


Thanks
Mark S


PS. the green chromis is fine.

 

[dnov99]

From the looks of that clownfish, I think you may have marine velvet. Its a very aggressive and deadly parasite. It will have no effect on any of your corals or inverts. Your best bet at this point is to just let the tank go fallow for 10 weeks and the parasite will die off with no hosts.

 

[mnat]

I can't view your pics at work so I am going to take a shot in the dark here. First off, how do you acclimate your fish to the tank? What are your nitrate, nitrites, salinity and ammonia readings? When you say the fish got sick, how did you know they were sick? Where they covered in ick or something like that? Can you explain your system a little more (sump, skimmer, temp, etc)?

Disease could be a factor but without pics it is tough to tell. The other thing that might be is oxegyn levels in your tank. We almost lost fish when we put too many in a small tank. Honestly a kole tang is way to big of a fish for a 34 gallon and so it a pair of clarkii clowns. Those fish can all get to around 5 inches and can become very aggressive in a tank that size. There may not have been enough dissolved oxegyn in the tank for fish of that size. This always hit our bigger fish first and then small fish and then inverts last, hence why yours could be fine.

The other thing might be acclimation, depending on what your acclimation technique is and what your water params are and what the store where you bought it from params are. Again, I don't know how you acclimate so again just a guess.

 

[JRWOHLER]

If what Darren says is true then it is best to follow his advice. I am in the same boat as mnat.....I get censored sometimes. But a kole tang is too big for that tank. Even small they are swimmers who should have more room.

 

[NikkiT]

I think Darren is right about the velvet diagnosis, which I am very sorry to say as it is likely a death sentence.

To allow the tank to go fallow, you will have to remove every fish. It is possible to have a carrier otherwise. You should also isolate those chromis, if they are still with you. It is possible that one of them is a carrier.

As far as size of fish goes, a 34g is a tough size. I may join James in getting censored here, but the rule of thumb for a tang is 6 ft of swimming legnth. There are people who successfully keep healthy tangs in 50 and 75g, and there are clownfish keepers who I personally consider experts with them who can keep larger clowns in smaller systems, but those individuals are few and far between . . . As a fellow clown lover, once your tank is back on track, if you want a pair of clowns, I would suggest A. Percula or Ocellaris; both species will stay relatively small and should do fine in a 34g.
Damsels are not captive bred, they are wild caught. Many of the Clarki clowns on the market are also wild caught, and all tangs available on the market today are wild caught. When setting up a tank, purchasing aquacultured specimens (like percula clowns or ocellaris clowns) can be a good idea. They are more likely to be disease resistant, and are typically more tolerant of the swings you will get in parameters in a nano.

Again, I am very sorry that you are going through this.

Stop by our meeting on 8/20 and check out our nano, there are plenty of animals that can be housed in a small tank.

 

[JRWOHLER]

I could break down the minimum tank sizes for each tangs but 75G would be good minimum for the smallest tangs (kole being one of them).
NikkiT and mnat are pretty darn good with nano tanks so check out their threads...though they are moved up to a 57, they are keeping it in a nano type build.

 

[Ultimate Corals]

After looking up pictures of marine velvet It definitely looks the same and symptoms seem to be the same. Outside of the clowns there is that one green chromis in the tank. He has paired up with the cleaner shrimp so I'm not sure if the shrimp is cleaning him and that's how he survived? It looks like removing all the fish is going to be the best course of action. If the little green guy is a carrier of the disease would he also show symptoms of it? I'd hate to take him out and give him to someone only to find out he infected there tank also but i would also hate to euthanize the little guy.

As for the tank size argument...And I'm the last one to want to start any sort of argument or drama because i believe there are people on both sides of the fence that believe very strongly. In my experience (Others may have different opinions or results) I believe a tang or similarly sized fish can live very happily while small in a 30+ tank as long as certain parameters are met. Adiquet aqua-scaping to allow the fish ample space to swim and hide, regularly scheduled water changes of 20-30%, more than adiquit skimming, and most importantly they are the only fish. With that people will say "But you also had two damsels in there at the same time breaking your rule". The damsels were to be given away to another local reefer to cycle there tank and then the next and the next...

Again this is only my opinion and it may not be what others feel or believe is true and I don't want to start a flaming war by that. But I've kept tangs and puffers (not at the same time )in 30+ gallon tanks following those guidelines for years before moving them into my 180. But please take that with a grain of salt.


Thanks for everyone help on this issue as I truly appreciate it.


Thanks
Mark S

 

[NikkiT]

I am not condeming your fish choice, I am simply suggesting smaller fish. FYI, I kept a Toby in a 1g nano for 4 years, and a maroon clown, raccoon butterfly, and 2 damsels in a 20g tank for 6 years. Knowing what I know now, I personally choose to keep smaller fish in my small tanks. Keeping a small fish in a small tank, with the plan to move it into a larger tank and access to that larger tank or a plan to place it elsewhere when it outgrows it can work well.

The chromes could be a carrier and not show signs of disease. I would not recommend rehoming him as the only way to be certain he is not a carrier is to introduce him to another healthy fish and see what happens. I would suggest isolation, not euthanization, if you can avoid it.

FYI, if you set up another tank in the future and want to avoid the damsel territtorialiy problems, I have cycled tanks with damsels in the past; I now use an instant cycle product called Dr. tim's; i have had equally good success with it.

 

[Ultimate Corals]

I know this is probably a waste at this point but if I wanted to setup a QT tank for the clowns and chromis what size would i need? and what medications should I get. I've never set on up before so am I using new RO water? Tank water?


Thanks
Mark S

 

[downbeach]

I would go with a 20 gal. bare bottom tank and try hypo salinity first. If that doesn't work you could try some cupramine. I'd put some pieces of PVC in the HT for the fish to hide in. You'll have to allow your DT to lie fallow for a couple of months or more, before re introducing fish.

 

[JRWOHLER]

If it is marine velvet I don't know if hyposalinity will work. It works for ick and that is what I do for all my fish in QT. For those two small fish even a 10G will work, PVC adds some hiding places with an easy to clean bonus. Run bare bottom, do daily water changes, and I would speak to Dr Jim about getting some medicine. Check out our sponsors. Or one of the better LFS. Use fresh made salt water yes. Probably a fresh water dip would be helpful but I am not sure. Garlic may help your fish eat, and help them be more resilient.

 

[downbeach]

Diagnosis is the first problem here. If it's Brooklynella, then Fromalin would be a better choice. I think I'd look at the Kordon site and do a little reading. They should have a number of products to help here. I know I've use Copper-Tru and Fromalin 3 for this type of problem, with success in the past.

 

[Ultimate Corals]

I'll head out to Petco/Petsmart to pick up a 10 gallon and stand after work. What else do i need to pick up? Since i really don't have the time to cycle the tank with this given issue is it going to be ok? Do i just put the fish right in? As i figure acclimating them can cause more stress. Do I add any of the 34's water or just use new salt RO?



Thanks
Mark S

 

[NikkiT]

New, premixed water. Velvet has a free-swimming stage in it's life cycle, so no water from the 34g. Make sure your temp and your specific gravity are the same. If you need to buy pre-mixed water, several sponcers sell it (tropaquarium, reef to reptiles, red sand off the top of my head).
You also want to be sure you have several extra gallons of premixed, aerated water on hand.

 

[downbeach]

FWIW, initially, I'd use the tank water, if it's param's are good, it would cause less stress in moving the fish. Whatever treatment you decide on will kill the dinospores anyway.

 

[Hawkeye]

there are no hard and fast rules in this hobby - (other than you have to use (NSW or ASW) saltwater...) ;D)

But keeping pelagic (tangs, anthias etc) fish in smaller sized tanks is just stacking the odds against you. It's possible to do for sure - it's just rare you ever see a nano tank of the month that has any tang in it. Anyways enough beating of the horse.

You should get a sponge filter - it will need to be seeded but given the emergency i'd toss it into the QT and perhaps purchase some type of jump-starter off-the-shelf item that can help. The sponge filter will act as psuedo-live rock for the bacteria to colonize and help to stabilize the QT.

A simple air pump with either flexible or rigid tubbing to add oxygen to the tank will be needed.

Perhaps cover 3 sides of the 10g with construction paper to darken and provide less stress for your fish.

as downbeach and jrwohler said - a pvc or similar for the fish to hide would be good.

finally - good luck!

 

[Ultimate Corals]

Well setup a 10gallon with a hang on filter. I wasn't sure if i should use the filter cartridge since it has carbon in it and I wasn't sure if that would pull the copper out of the water. In there is also a heater and small powerhead. The male looks like he's on deaths door. The female isn't much better.

I ended up using 6-7 gallons of new salt RO water and 3 or so gallons of tank water since i ran out of RO and thought it might help with acclimation.


I guess it's now a waiting game...

 

[JRWOHLER]

I have found that it is good to do water changes for couple reasons.
First you can siphon off the poop on the bottom, keeping your organics from building up.
Second dilution of what is in the water.
Third you eliminate some of the organisms you are looking to kill.
Make sure you don't move the hose from the display to qt without washing or something.

 

[NikkiT]

The carbon will pull the copper out of the water. Try some filter floss, if you have it, along with water changes.

 

[Ultimate Corals]

Unfortunately the clowns didn't make it. They survived about a day in QT and then passed. I'm still working to get the damsel out of the dt to put in qt. I just find it odd that he has no signs of any sickness and eats like a pig.

I'm still trying to pin point exactly how marine velvet made it into my tank. I had the tang for a couple weeks before he showed an symptoms and seemed fine up until that point. No other fish were added before he passed. The only thing different is i purchased RO water from a different LFS then i normally go to. Is it possible that it might have been in the water?