Natureef Denitrifier

[BuGG]

Trying to figure out what equipment/supplies I would need to get this running on a 120g with 40g sump.

Very interested as well. I have the same setup.

 

[lefkonj]

Saw the system today when I was at Darren's house. Amazing tank BTW, just amazing. The system seems very reasonable and if it works like it supposed to long term, I am in.

 

[dnov99]

I'm sorry Darren, I can't trust you on this.....I'll have to see it in person to make my own judgement.

Paul, you know you have an open invite

I saw the system last week. Darren's tanks always look great but they are way over the top now. I wish mine looked half as good as his.

Thanks Ed, was good seeing you..

Hmm, this process/system is looking better and better all the time.

Trying to figure out what equipment/supplies I would need to get this running on a 120g with 40g sump. Darren, can you give me a quick list on what you think I would need to buy from them? I'm looking to get a complete package like you have. I'll contact them directly to get a quote on your suggestions... unless you can get it for me like you stated earlier?

Also, Darren, are you running a UV filter with this system?

George and Bugg, depending on your bio-load now you could use the Model 1 or 2 reactor. They range from $850-$900 which would include everything you need to get the system started and running for 3-5 months. for the Extra $50 I would just go with the model 2, which leaves room fro an upgrade down the road. If either of you have any questions feel free to shoot me a PM. I would be able to take care of ordering any product for you. George, I do run UV with this system.

Saw the system today when I was at Darren's house. Amazing tank BTW, just amazing. The system seems very reasonable and if it works like it supposed to long term, I am in.

Thanks for the compliments Jeff, was good seeing you again. Enjoy the corals!

Darren

 

[TanksNStuff]

Thanks Darren. You said that would be enough for 3-5 months. What do you think the annual (or quarterly) costs would be for replenishing whatever I'm using up (for the 120g as opposed to your 600g system)?

Trying to gauge whether it's cost effective vs. what I'm doing/plan to do now. I know you said you eventually end up doing less or no water changes and this system will be replacing ROWAphos and the 2-part dosing additives I'm using now, etc.

I think I'll have to read some more on this system on other forums before committing, but I'm seriously considering it! I'll let you know if/when I need to order stuff Darren.

Actually, I have 2 more questions....

1. Does this need to automatically flush/drain out several times a day or something? Reason I ask is because I don't have a basement sump area where I have access to a drain... it's under my stand on a slab floor. If it does, I have no way to implement this system on my tank.

2. I'm not trying to be cheap, but just wondering if I can utilize some of my current equipment and possibly just need the nitragone/phosphagone stuff and perhaps just the chamber? I have a reef angel controller that I can basically program it to control dosing either on a timed basis or based on pH, etc. I also have 2 brand new BRS dosing pumps too. Would any of this be usable in lieu of buying their equipment? I guess I'm just not sure on how the whole system works yet so not sure if I could substitute stuff I already have for things they include?

 

[dnov99]

Thanks Darren. You said that would be enough for 3-5 months. What do you think the annual (or quarterly) costs would be for replenishing whatever I'm using up (for the 120g as opposed to your 600g system)?

Trying to gauge whether it's cost effective vs. what I'm doing/plan to do now. I know you said you eventually end up doing less or no water changes and this system will be replacing ROWAphos and the 2-part dosing additives I'm using now, etc.

I think I'll have to read some more on this system on other forums before committing, but I'm seriously considering it! I'll let you know if/when I need to order stuff Darren.

Actually, I have 2 more questions....

1. Does this need to automatically flush/drain out several times a day or something? Reason I ask is because I don't have a basement sump area where I have access to a drain... it's under my stand on a slab floor. If it does, I have no way to implement this system on my tank.

2. I'm not trying to be cheap, but just wondering if I can utilize some of my current equipment and possibly just need the nitragone/phosphagone stuff and perhaps just the chamber? I have a reef angel controller that I can basically program it to control dosing either on a timed basis or based on pH, etc. I also have 2 brand new BRS dosing pumps too. Would any of this be usable in lieu of buying their equipment? I guess I'm just not sure on how the whole system works yet so not sure if I could substitute stuff I already have for things they include?

I am going to estimate that from what I have used in Nitragone and Phosphagone thus far, 1 gallon of Nitragone ($39.99) and 1 Quart of Phosphagone ($39.99) would last the entire year for you. So your looking at $80 in maintenance costs for the year. You stated that this will replace 2 part, but it does not do that. You will still have to dose a 2 part system, they just recommend their product or a calcium reactor with this system. Their 2 part is an excellent product as it is more then just calcium and alk, it has mg, potassium, strontium and many other trace elements.

As for the draining of the system after a flush, the water from the reactor drains back into your sump, as this water has been basically cleaned of all PO4 and NO3, so you would just need room for the reactor near your sump so it could flush and drain to the sump. Hope that makes sense. I have mine above my sump so it can gravity drain back into the sump.

I suppose you could use your own controller/dosing pumps, but the one that comes with the unit are all exactly calibrated for use with this system, in terms of quantity to dose, length of flush, etc. I can ask the owner if other people have tried this and if its possible. Lmk if that answers all your questions....

Darren

 

[TanksNStuff]

$80 a year sounds pretty reasonable compared to buying salt and all the water I'd be saving from less/no water changes. I thought the "system" you were quoting before also covered replacement of 2-part dosing, but if not, no biggy.

Gotcha on the draining to sump. I now have a better understanding of the process and believe that I could make this work. I'll have a side cabinet next to my stand that I could probably put the reactor/chambers in there if I can't fit them under the stand.

Thanks Darren, that helps a lot. Yea, if you could find out if anyone has used their own equipment with these additives successfully, I'd like to know about it.

I think I need to get up there and see this thing in person to get a better feel for how it works and what I'd need to do to set it up on my tank. You live pretty far away though. I searched for videos of this system to get a better idea, but surprisingly couldn't find any.

 

[Zippy69]

Well I saw Darren's tank and all I can say is WOW!! His color is off the charts. To understand what I mean you would have to drop some acid. Lol. This system is something I am going to persue as my tank matures. Next meeting he hosts you really should attend.

 

[dnov99]

Well I saw Darren's tank and all I can say is WOW!! His color is off the charts. To understand what I mean you would have to drop some acid. Lol. This system is something I am going to persue as my tank matures. Next meeting he hosts you really should attend.

Thanks Pete, it was good seeing you! Enjoy the corals!

 

[iTzJu]

I am currently battling nitrates myself and this system looks very interesting.

Darren, as far as flushing the reaction chamber is there an electrical solenoid on the chamber to allow you to flush the treated water back into your sump on a timed basis or is the chamber set up in a way when the feed pump is activated, the treated water overflows back in the sump?

 

[iTzJu]

2. I'm not trying to be cheap, but just wondering if I can utilize some of my current equipment and possibly just need the nitragone/phosphagone stuff and perhaps just the chamber? I have a reef angel controller that I can basically program it to control dosing either on a timed basis or based on pH, etc. I also have 2 brand new BRS dosing pumps too. Would any of this be usable in lieu of buying their equipment? I guess I'm just not sure on how the whole system works yet so not sure if I could substitute stuff I already have for things they include?

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2381987

Did some googling and it seems some people have already DIY. seems like the hardest part would be calculating when the cycle has completed its job to flush the chamber and the correct dosing amount of the carbon source, which regular methanol was used. Overall though, after all that is dialed in this can be DIY pretty easily.

depending on the size of your tank and room, I can see this being done with a 10 gallon tank, dosers, and a controller.

 

[redfishbluefish]

What an unusual carbon source. Methanol's metabolic pathway is


Methanol --> Formaldehyde --> formate --> carbon dioxide


What I find odd is that it is the rate at which the above metabolism occurs that makes methanol poisonous. Typically you have a build up of either formaldehyde or formic acid, which typically tends to be problematic.

 

[iTzJu]

What an unusual carbon source. Methanol's metabolic pathway is


Methanol --> Formaldehyde --> formate --> carbon dioxide


What I find odd is that it is the rate at which the above metabolism occurs that makes methanol poisonous. Typically you have a build up of either formaldehyde or formic acid, which typically tends to be problematic.

waaaay over my head on that Paul, haha. I am not worthy.

ive read that Nitragone is essentially dilluted methanol with food coloring. Apprantely, Natureef use to ship out 100% Methanol but were fined for shipping flammable chemicals. They decided to dillute the product to avoid these fines. BUT, I do not have first hand experience with this product or am I a chemist in anyway to prove that. Just something I read on the internets,so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[kschweer]

I am currently battling nitrates myself and this system looks very interesting.

Darren, as far as flushing the reaction chamber is there an electrical solenoid on the chamber to allow you to flush the treated water back into your sump on a timed basis or is the chamber set up in a way when the feed pump is activated, the treated water overflows back in the sump?

I saw this system in person and from my understanding and what I saw new tank water is pumped into the reaction chamber displacing the water in the chamber which overflows back to the sump. Hope that makes sense. Basically there's a baffle and when the new water is pumped into the chamber the water in the chamber flows over the baffle and is gravity fed back to the sump.

 

[Zippy69]

The system/ chambers are totally separate from the main system. Judeo, as for flushing it's not a 100% in 100% out. The bacteria culture and time are what does the job. One more reason I like it is it emulates the KISS method, (Keep it simple stupid) and a non tech person can easily deal with it. I really am looking to add this in the next 4 months as it would greatly decrease my water changes. I live in a house with no real basement and lugging water gets old fast. After measuring last night I can fit the mid range reactor under my DT. This will be more than enough for my current setup.

 

[iTzJu]

I saw this system in person and from my understanding and what I saw new tank water is pumped into the reaction chamber displacing the water in the chamber which overflows back to the sump. Hope that makes sense. Basically there's a baffle and when the new water is pumped into the chamber the water in the chamber flows over the baffle and is gravity fed back to the sump.

The system/ chambers are totally separate from the main system. Judeo, as for flushing it's not a 100% in 100% out. The bacteria culture and time are what does the job. One more reason I like it is it emulates the KISS method, (Keep it simple stupid) and a non tech person can easily deal with it. I really am looking to add this in the next 4 months as it would greatly decrease my water changes. I live in a house with no real basement and lugging water gets old fast. After measuring last night I can fit the mid range reactor under my DT. This will be more than enough for my current setup.

Thanks guys. After I saw the DIY, I got a better underrstanding of how the system works. I am definitely looking into how I can implement this to my current system. I have all the parts needed to get this going, spare 10 gallon tank, eggcrates, dosers, apex controller, and pumps. I have an 80 gallon tank with a 40 breeder sump, they recommend for a 200 gallon setup would be 5-15 gallon reaction chamber. the bigger the reaction chamber the less flushes needed. Most difficult part would be get everything calculated for the dosage and flushing times but after that's all in place, should be a breeze.

Pete, as you know with all the time I've been going nuts on my nitrates getting this setup and working shouldn't at all be difficult. haha

 

[trivan]

I have no doubt this system works and I am thinking of adding it to my new build. I do wonder why all the rocket scientist chemist on the various reef forums are not using this? I have yet to see any of them chime in on the chemical side of this process/system.

 

[dnov99]

Judeo, looks like your questions were answered here. This is certainly something that can be done DIY, but thats just not something I never do with this hobby. The issue is finding the proper rates to dose, flush and drain the system, which they design perfectly into the timer, doser and reactor. When you factor in the costs to build it, you really dont save much $$$, unless you already have a lot of the parts around which is possible. For me that wasn't the situation.

I'm sure the chemists will debate all day and night as to how this and if it works. The bottom line for me is the proof is in the results and I can honestly say that this is the most I have ever enjoyed this hobby in my 15 years in it. The combination of the health of my corals and reduced amount of work has just been incredibly rewarding...

 

[iTzJu]

Honestly, I was looking into investing into the system as well before seeing the DIY. With everyone's reactions and things I've read, the system does work and works very well. I trying the DIY route for this becuase like you said, it'll be easy for me as I do already have most, if not all the parts needed for the project. I also like to tinker so figuring things out like the dosing portion wouldn't bother me. I just need to figure out how to make fit under my stand lol.

I'm glad you brought this method to our attention. its great finding out new things to help with the hobby. I would of never imagine a system like this to reduce/eliminate nitrates.

 

[TanksNStuff]

Darren, I would rather not DIY it either because I think it will take a lot of experimentation to get the dosing down right (and in the meantime could potentially endanger my livestock until I get it right). However, I would also prefer not to buy extra equipment if I might already own an alternative part of the system right now.

In the end, I'm not sure how much I would save with a DIY since I'd still need to buy everything except the controller... so maybe I'll just go with a complete system and feel confident that it's all setup to work right out of the box.

OK, I'm about 90% sure that's what I'm going to do. All I need to do now is make sure I have a spot to setup the reaction chamber/tank and then I'd like to see your system in person so that I can verify all the equipment involved and make sure I can accommodate them all under my stand.

 

[dnov99]

6 weeks without a water change, although I plan in doing one this weekend and then waiting 2 months for the next and eventually eliminating!!!

Po4 and NO3 have been holding trace levels, corals look better every day. My friend with a 500 gal mixed reef just put a reactor in today...