Phosban Reactors/Phosban

[Phyl]

I'm running Phosban through a reactor. Right now my tank is steady at .07. My PO4 reactor is putting out water that is .06. This is the first time I'm testing the effluent though, so I'm not sure if the PO4 media is losing its efficacy or if I'm running the effluent too high.

How slow/fast is your PO4 effluent? Have you ever tested it for PO4 to see what it is coming out of there at?

I figure I can either replace the media or slow down the effluent. Which would you do first?



As a side note, I dumped my test kit water into the container I just fed the fish out of. HOLY MOLY COW! It turned bright blue in a heartbeat! Formula 1, formula 2, prime reef, cyclopeze, mysis... Ouch. I guess I should be glad the PO4 is as low as it is.

Do you use these foods? Do you defrost and rinse them? Does that help? Anyone test the PO4 content in any of the above?

 

[rutz81]

I do not run Phosban, so I cannot directly comment on that. I run Rowaphos and the water is running pretty slow through it, I run a MJ 400, turned down a bit. The media is slightly turning, almost what Coffee looks like in an old fashioned coffee pot. I know you don't use Rowa, but, that gives you an idea of the strength of the water flow. BTW, my effluent on the reactor is always zero, when it's not I change my media. If I were you, I'd slow your media and give thata try before changing media.

Also, last week, I tested my usual frozen foods I feed. The same thing happened as happened to you, really high Phospahtes. Since then, I have been thawing my food, then rinsing, and only giving the food and none of the phosphate enriched water,

 

[Phyl]

I actually think the stuff I'm using is closer to rowa than it is to phosban (GFO from NJRC spring group buy). I'll slow it down and see how that changes things. Thanks!

 

[panmanmatt]

You definitely want to be rinsing the frozen foods.

 

[Carlo]

I run my Phosban reactor at about 20 gallons per hour. I found through trial and error it worked the best for me at that pace.

You could try a little test Phyl and see what happens. Fill a 5 gallon bucket up with system water and get another empty 5 gallon bucket. Run the water through the media into the 2nd bucket. Note the result of the 2nd bucket. Then run it back to the 1st bucket and note the number. Go back and forth until you don't see a drop in levels. If you see it not drop past a certain point you know you found the limit of your current media. Not all GFO will get you to ZERO. Some will, some won't. Actually dead zero is bad anyway.

I've had some like Phosban that wouldn't go lower then .05 while Pura Phoslock would take the levels down to .015 which is right where I like it. Of course onec you get the tank where you want it to be you can cut back on the amount of media you run so you don't waste it.

FOODS:
Use them and more. After a long debate on RC about washing frozen foods, I called 2 different companies and got the same answer. Don't rinse the foods. Your only going to rinse a very small amount of phosphates away BUT YOU WILL wash away much of the enhanced vitamins and amino acids.

I put a couple of cubes in shotglass and add a little tank water to the glass to help it defrost slowly on it's own. Once defrosted I'll add it to the tank. I also asked both companies the preferred way to defrost the food. Basically the answer was to sit it out until it defrost on it's own or add a little tank water to help it a bit. Don't ever add hot water or microwave it or do anything unnatural to warm it up. Also don't add frozen cubes to the tank.

Hope that helps,
Carlo

 

[NEWSALT]

Phyl:

I am running a PO4 reactor. My display tank's PO4 is at .35....that's horrible ! I checked the reactor effluent and it's 0.07. I don't know where this PO4 is coming from. I can't feed any less or the fish will starve. I'm feeding every 3rd day. I wonder if it from my carbon. I love carbon because it make the water look great, but I think I'm going to have to give it a try and take out the carbon bag and see what happens. The flow through the reactor is just enough to make the top of the media look like a "boil".

 

[Jcurry@wesketch]

I don't run phosphate absorber but I defrost my frozen foods in a plastic specimen cup with tank water. Then pour off the tank water and feed to the tank.

 

[Phyl]

Wow, Mike. I'm really shocked that with your PO4 coming out of the reactor at .07 that your tank water is .35! That's crazy. We have to feed more often than you do. With my anthias in the tank I feed a bit of *flake* (eep) 2x a day and also we feed frozen 2-3x a week (no great schedule there).

Some thoughts are:

• Leaching off/out of the rock
• foods
• source water/s (but you've eliminated this as a MAJOR contributor)

Do you dose DTs, feed cyclopeze, add any supplements to the tank?

How often are you changing your PO4 media? We ran ours for a week, changed it, ran another batch for a week and changed it again. Now we're running along with the same media for about 2 weeks. I'll change it again when I'm sure it isn't putting out zero. By the second set of phosban our PE improved dramatically. But of course we'd added the NO3 reactor in there around the same time.



All, thanks for the thoughts on feeding. We defrost in tank water, but usually just pour it into the tank. I might consider dumping the first rinse of the foods. But in reality? I probably won't. LOL.

 

[NEWSALT]

Well, I just added new media in the reactor last night. I used Pura PhosLock because Ocean Gallery in N. Plainfield didn't have Phosban. Before that I had Phosban running in a media bag in a high flow area of my sump because I couldn't find my reactor. I'm going to run that for a week and change it. I took the carbon bag out of the sump. I want to see if that was part of the problem. I was dosing DT's but ran out of it a few weeks ago. I feed Cyclopeze once a week. When I feed frozen mysis shrimp, I let it defrost in a cup with a minimal amount of tank water. I never rinse it.

 

[Carlo]

Phyl:

I am running a PO4 reactor. My display tank's PO4 is at .35....that's horrible ! I checked the reactor effluent and it's 0.07. I don't know where this PO4 is coming from. I can't feed any less or the fish will starve. I'm feeding every 3rd day. I wonder if it from my carbon. I love carbon because it make the water look great, but I think I'm going to have to give it a try and take out the carbon bag and see what happens. The flow through the reactor is just enough to make the top of the media look like a "boil".

If you have a phosphate test kit do the test on RO/DI water which should come up at zero. Then drop a few pellets of carbon in there and see if you see "trails" coming from the carbon as it sinks. If so it's leaching phosphates bad. Then mix it up and let it set for a day and see if the color changes. Again if so it's leaching phosphates.

Carlo

 

[Brian]

Does the PO4 media that the club has leach phosphates back in to the water?

 

[NEWSALT]

That's the one I was using that I took out. So, I think it's suspect.

 

[Phyl]

I'll have to try that with the GB carbon the next time I run a PO4 test. It had been tested before, but this seems like it would be an interesting experiment.


Brian, as far as I know, the answer to that is no. I'll throw some used media into my next PO4 experiment and see what happens with that as well.

 

[Carlo]

Ut oh, Phyl your turning into the mad scientist now too.

I've done this "test" with a lot of different carbons over the years and most of them fail. Two Little Fish Hydro Carbon is good and Black Diamond was also decent (pretty cheap too).

I myself have stopped running carbon completely and only use synthetic scavenging resin/adsorbent media. It doesn't take the trace elements out like carbon does, never leaches and changes color as it's used up. Once it changes color you can recharge it and use it over and over again. Very little loss per recharge. Much cheaper then carbon in the long. It's not a substitute for carbon if you run ozone however. It's more of a dissolved organics & nitrogenous waste absorbent which is what most people use carbon for anyway.

Carlo

 

[Phyl]

only use synthetic scavenging resin/adsorbent media.

What the ...?!

 

[Phyl]

I wanted to see what effect the change in flow through the PO4 reactor has had. My PO4 coming out of the reactor is now .04. Cool to watch such an immediate cause and effect relationship. My media isn't bumping anymore so I'm not sure I want to turn it down anymore, but I would settle on cutting my PO4 in half!



Ok, I soaked carbon in my source water for a few minutes and then used that water to test for PO4. The result was a PO4 reading of .03. I'll leave it sit overnight and test again tomorrow.

My first attempt at a test had the carbon in the test vial and while I saw no blue trails off of the carbon, it was putting a significant amount of air into the water which skewed the test result. But a clean test showed no added PO4 (with a chance the PO4 is less).

 

[NEWSALT]

synthetic scavenging resin/adsorbent media

Carlo is this something like you're talking about:

http://www.polyplab.com/optiphos.html

 

[Carlo]

Yea, something kind of like that NEWSALT. That particular product is for Phosphates & Silicates. Another similar type product would be PÛRA NitrateLock which of course is a selective ion exchange resin that can be regenerated made for Nitrate removal. Seachem's CupriSorb & HyperSorb are also in the same line. The HyperSorb product is actually pretty similar but you need a lot more of the HyperSorb to do the same job as what I use.

The synthetic polymer I'm using has more affinity for proteins and dissolved organics then the products above. It's more like a protein skimmer in a bag type thing. Great for nanos and other systems where you can't run a protein skimmer. It's kind of the "secret" how I've gotten away with out the uses of water changes while still keeping nitrates and phosphates in check.

Carlo

 

[JohnS_323]

It's kind of the "secret" how I've gotten away with out the uses of water changes while still keeping nitrates and phosphates in check.

How much will it cost for you to divulge this "secret"? I'd be interested in trying it out in my nano.

 

[Carlo]

It's not a secret just not available on the market yet. It's not one product per say but a mixture of different synthetic polymers that when combined in the right proportions do a great job of removing proteins, dissolved organics & nitrogenous waste (that would break down into ammonia/nitrite/nitrate & phosphate) with minimal impact on items such as vitamins and amino acids (unlike carbon). It's different then carbon as it's much more selective in what it removes. It won't remove heavy metals (IE copper) or medications like carbon will nor will it serve the purpose of carbon in an ozone environment. But what it does very well is target "organic" type stuff in the water.

It's probably going to be called "ProNitro"/"Nitro Scavenger"/"Organic Scavenger". Something similar or along those lines.

Carlo