Plumbing....Basement sumps

[Tazmaniancowboy]

I have a 120Gal reef with dual overflows. I currently have my sump in the basement which only holds about 30Gals. I used flex pvc tubing for the drains and return because it was set up directly under the main tank. I am in the process of switching over to a 100Gal rubbermaid for my sump. The new sump will be about eight feet from my current setup so I will have to re-plumb everything.

I assume that pvc pipe will be easier and cost less than flex tubing so it is what I'll use unless someone convinces me otherwise. My main question is Should I run two 2"pipes to the sump for the drain or should I do one 3" or 4". My thought with the 2 pipe system is that I would be able to gravity feed a fuge or maybe even another tank with only half of the drain water sometime in the future.

The Megaflows use 1.25" tubing so I was going to run flex from the tank to the hole in the floor and then pick it up with 2" pvc pipe to the sump. The sump is up on concrete blocks. My return will have a 1.25" 90deg elbow coming out of the sump, run for 6 feet pitched down, another 90 and then another 6 feet pitched down, but not as steep where I will put a 1.25" union ball valve and step down into the Iwaki100's 1" input (pump on the floor). and then I was going to use 1.25" again from the 1" out of the pump straight up about 11 feet Tee to both returns and then step back down to 3/4 flex connected to the Loclines. Hope I was clear in my description.

How are you plumbed into the basement? Any pics? I'd like to see how you are hooked up. Please , any thoughts or suggestions are greatly appreciated. I have had this sump waiting since around Sept and want to hook it up now! I have been procrastinating too long and playing too many scenarios in my head as to how I should set this up. Being that it is going to rain tomorrow afternoon and all day Fri it would be the perfect project!

Thanks
Taz

 

[arvin]

Check this one out for the starters:

http://www.njreefers.org/forums/index.php/topic,1926.0.html

 

[JohnS_323]

Darn Arvin you beat me to it! I went to copy the link and when I came back it was already posted ;D

Taz, let me know if you have any questions. I just realized that you're going to be swinging by here to pick up your inverts, so I can give you the full tour when you get here if you want.

 

[Tazmaniancowboy]

Thanks Arvind, I saw johns post once before, but forgot it was there That is one cool setup

John, Yes I will be there to pick up my order and would like to see the system. Until then, what do you think about my plan. I keep second guessing myself as to sizing. I was going to change out the bulkhead to a 2" in the sump, but don't think it is really necessary since the Iwaki has both 1" connections. How long and how many turns is your 2" drain to the sump? Right now I have 1"flex on both drains and the tubing is pretty much full all the time I'd be scared to have one 2" line. You don't feel it is undersized?

I'll probably go buy some more materials this afternoon. Come on guys I would like more comments and Pictures if available. I know you have them!

Thanks
Taz

 

[JohnS_323]

Taz, I'm in training today (I just snuck out to feed my addiction!) but I'll reread your original post and get back to you later.


(Whoo hoo Post Number 500 - I remember thinking "I'm never gonna post anything!")

 

[arvin]

I was going to change out the bulkhead to a 2" in the sump, but don't think it is really necessary since the Iwaki has both 1" connections.

John and others are going to recommend to increase the size from 1" to 1.5" or more right after the pump and reduce it right before the tank.

I'll probably go buy some more materials this afternoon.

I would suggest to do a diagram first of what you are planning to do. You can use a software like powerpoint to do that.

When I first started my project this is how it went: First I wanted to move my sump to the basement, then add a refugium and then a RO/DI reservoir and another reservoir for salt water mix etc, automate the top off, automate the water change... you get the idea. And then I wanted to do everything at once. Basically a full fledged fish room in the basement. I am not sure if you have the room for all the extra things, but if you plan ahead, you can link them all up with one pump.

I'll share some of my own trials and tribulations wherever possible, so you can learn from my mistakes.

Whoohoo! it is my 100th post.

 

[JohnS_323]

Yeah, Arvind is right, I'd suggest going with some larger sizes. Here are a couple of recommendations:

Since you have a bit of a run from the sump to the pump, I'd go with 2" PVC and maybe two 45* fittings instead of each 90*. This way you ensure a nice flow of water into the pump.

Next, I'd come out of the pump at 1.5" and go into some sort of "manifold" that allows you to divert a portion of the flow back to the sump. This is helpful in giving you the ability to max out the flow to your display without putting undo strain on the pump. Continue out of the manifold and into the cabinet at 1.5". Put in a Tee and take both legs at 1.5" right to the inlet and then step down to 3/4". I have ball valves on each leg of the return lines after the Tee. I use them for killing the flow when I feed the tank (and if you saw me, you'd realize running up and down stairs isn't something I do too often!). This is only possible because I'm diverting water back to the sump.

As for the drain lines, I think two 2" lines would be fine, no need to step up to 3" or 4". I've never used drain lines to feed other tanks so I really can't speak to that. It seems pretty straightforward, though.

MY USUAL DISCLAIMER! This is what I have done. It's all I've done. When I solicited advice, this is was what was given to me. I went with it and it worked. Other options may be equally as effective but I have no experience with them.

Feel free to call me or PM me with any questions. If you want to swing by before the inverts come in, that's fine too.

 

[Tazmaniancowboy]

Thanks again John and Arvind,

I decided it was not worth risking the vehicle today in this storm, so I didn't get out to get the parts. I was debating all day to increase the supply to the pump to the 2". I pretty much ave to use the 90's because of my situation unfortunately. Do you really think it is necessary for the return to the tank to be 1.5"? I don't have a monster pump like you! LOL I was thinking the 1.25 should be fine for now. What would be the reasoning for the 1.5"

At any rate, I just recently realized I'm probably choking the pump right now. I stubbed from a 1" bulkhead in the acrylic sump and the 1" out on the pump is immediately reduced to 3/4" flex up about 7 feet and then t'd into the returns...LOL I'm running the pump full open right now, I can't wait to see what it'll do when it is plumbed right. I may have to throttle it back or run a loop like you suggested. Thank you, you made me realize this. That's why I love these boards.

Taz

 

[Tazmaniancowboy]

John, I like that manifold setup. If I were to duplicate it (with your permission of course) with my small pump, should I use 3" or would 2" be sufficient? I would not have as many outlets, but I can run my skimmer and tank off the same pump. I love the Idea.

I would have 4 ports. 1 for the display tank, 1 for the skimmer, 1 to sewer for waterchange, and 1 empty for the slim chance I might put a little tank or fuge online in the future. I guess my question is would my pressure be "lost" in a 3" manifold?


Reefdrumz If you catch this, how did your system turn out? any pics?

Taz

 

[JohnS_323]

I have to do some research on flow rates. The main reason you step up to a larger diameter pipe is to minimize flow loss due to friction. On the other hand, there has to come a point where the weight of the water in too large a diameter pipe offsets the gain of the reduced friction (if that makes any sense).

Rich, do you have any input on this? I know you have a pretty good grasp of fluid dymanics.

Go for it with the manifold. That was a RichT suggestion that has been tremendous. I would absolutely go that route again if I had to do it all over. I don't know which sizes would be best for your pump, though. I guess you could go with 2" manifold and then use 1.25" for the ports. I'm sure that would be fine but I'm not familiar with other pump/pipe configurations.

Hopefully others will have some ideas.

 

[RichT]

I don't have any former schooling in fluid engineering but I do have a basic understanding of some things. First is to upsize the discharge, as John has said, due to friction loss. 1" upsized to 1.25 or 1.50 on the discharge, probably not to much difference for what we're trying to accomplish. Read; Michael Keaton in Mr. Mom "Ah 210 or 220, whatever it takes". On the suction side of the pump, I think its more important to have plenty of "free" water as close to the pump as possible. Your pumps are going to be drawing 12' away from the sump around a couple of bends. The pumps we use are not designed to draw a suction/vacuum very well if at all. Make those pipes as big as practical with as much pitch as possible. I'm worried the pumps will draw the water from the pipe faster than it can gravity feed which will possibly cause cavitation and lots "o" bubbles. I'm thinking out loud but I'm wondering if it would be better to drain the 2 pipes into another sump or Rubbermaid and let the pumps draw from that. But of course you need someway to control the bubbles in that sump as well. I wish I had a more definitive answer for you but I think your going to have to "poke and hope" with that one. Hopefully we have a mechanical engineer lurking around who could give a better answer. When we're laying gravity sanitary sewer lines in the streets, the larger the diameter pipe the flatter the minimum allowed pitch. i.e. 4" = 2%, 8" = 0.30%, 10" = 0.20% and so on. That's why I'm suggesting you go as big as practical on the gravity lines to the pumps. Good luck and keep us posted.