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Powder Blue Gone

Edwardw771

Edwardw771

NJRC Member
Our Powder blue started to get spots about a week ago. Found him up side down this morning. then he was no where to be found. I started taking rocks out and finally after completely moving every rock in my tank I found him under a rock.
We had that fish for over a year. And we are very sad. I just hope what ever he had does not infect the other fish in the tank. losing these great animals has got to be the worst part about this reefing stuff. It just kills me. :'( :'( :'( :'(
 
RichT

RichT

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
Bummer Ed, sorry to hear about that.

Look on the bright side, now you get to pick out another (after you make sure the tank is ok of course)
 
Edwardw771

Edwardw771

NJRC Member
Thanks Rich. I did also completly re-do my rock work. I took out one rock that is about 40 pounds. And now I have more room for more zoas. NICE.
 
C

Carlo

Hello Ed, sorry to hear about the powder blue. :(

Last week when I was over I noticed a few fish in your tank with marine ich (cryptocaryon irritans). Tangs are generally less tolerable to ich then many other fish. However, once you have it in your tank all the fish in your tank will probably have it since it's an enclosed system and the parasite can populate quickly.

To get rid of the parasites is a two part process. One part is to rid the fish themselves of the parasites and the second part is to rid the tank (complete system) also.

To rid the tank (complete system) you have to leave it fallow (without fish to host the parasite) for 2 months. Without a fish host the parasite it can't complete it's "cycle" and will die off (this requires a lot of patience and discipline).

To rid the fish of ich you have a few choices. You can treat with copper in a hospital tank or treat with hyposalinity (again in a hospital tank) or use the tank to tank transfer method. Some fish are less tolerable to copper then others. Also some fish don't do real well in hypo either. I myself prefer the tank to tank transfer method. I've tweaked the T to T transfer method and have a following on RC and other boards with people using it. Here's an overview of the process.

You will need a minimum of 2 QT tanks and HOB sponge filter (or other filter). The type of filter isn't a big deal and servers more to oxygenate the water then really "filter it". The process my method exploits is the fact that the parasites will only stay attached to the fish for 3 to 7 days before falling off into the substrate and rock to reproduce and start the next phase of it's cycle. What we want to accomplish is to let the parasite drop off the fish but never allow it to reattach to the fish. We do this by:
1. Put fish in QT tank 1
2. Move fish from QT tank 1 to QT tank 2 in 48 hours
3. Empty and thoroughly clean tank 1 including filter system. Let airdry until you use it again.
4. Move fish from QT tank 2 to QT tank 1 (now clean) in 48 hours.
5. Empty and thoroughly clean tank 2 including filter system. Let airdry until you use it again.
6. Move fish from QT tank 1 to QT tank 2 in 48 hours.
7. After 48 hours in QT tank 2 move the fish to it's new destination.

Basically, you put a fish in a clean QT tank for 2 days. Every 2 days you move it to another clean tank. At the end of 8 days all the parasites will have fallen off the fish (3 to 7 day cycle) but since each fish was never in the same tank long enough for the parasite to reattach it will come out "clean". This works for marine ich and velvet (much worse then ich and a fast killer).

To do this process you need 2 sets of tanks, 2 heaters and 2 filters. I myself don't use any sponges or media in the filters (mostly to aerate the water). Since the fish get completely new water ever 2 days there isn't any worries about testing the water. It's important to make sure the water in each tank matches so you don't stress the fish on the move. For example make sure the temp, pH and salinity match. You can use 10g or 20g long tanks depending on size of the fish to be treated.

You can of course use more then 2 sets of tanks. For example if you have 3 tanks you could start one today and start the next tank tomorrow (staggered). You will have 2 tanks with fish in them and always have one tank (clean and dry) to use as the new replacement tank. Same with having 3, 4 or 5 totals tanks (just hold one back as the clean tank and stagger the start up of each tank). Don't put sand or live rock or anything porious in the QT tanks. You don't want anything the parasite will "stick to". You can and should drop a couple pieces of PVC tubing or elbows in the tank for hiding places. Any PVC used in the tank needs to be cleaned and allowed to dry out before using again.

The tricky part is getting all the fish out of the tank! The other obstacle is that you need to leave the main system fallow (without fish) for 2 months. You'll end up needing yet another tank to put the fish in after they get done the QT process while you wait for the main system to rid itself of ich. This tank needs to be setup clean and you don't want to use any sand or rock from your system or you would contaminate the holding system from the start.

The holding system (after QT) doesn't really need to be a tank at all. I've used 32 and 44 gallon brute trash cans with a canister filter attached and a powerhead and some household light near the tank. Keep an eye on ammonia, nitrite and nitrates in this tank.

It's a major pain and undertaking to rid your system of ich. The best method (ideally) is to never allow the parasite to enter the system in the first place. You can do this by using the method above for all new fish arrivals (8 days in the T to T QT method). You technically should also QT any non fish for 2 months before allowing it to enter your tank. This includes corals, sand, rock etc. The reason this last piece is important is that the parasite could be attached to a piece of coral you pickup from somebody else. Once in your tank if it successfully attaches to a fish the ich cycle has started in your tank.

With all the above said you can also try and wait it out. The ich parasite has been studied very, very well. It has been shown that after enough cycles (attach to fish, drop off, multiply, reattach to fish) it will die off in your tank in approximately 11 months if no new ich has been introduced. This is where both UV and Ozone can have a big impact. A properly setup UV system can help tremendously in keeping the parasites from reproducing at a fast pace. If the water is flowing slow enough (check your UV docs) it will kill off any parasites going through the unit. The key is to run the UV unit stand alone and not hooked into the sump. You want the UV unit to pull water from the middle of the tank at the bottom (parasites live mostly in the substrate). Ozone is also good at killing off the parasites and no special setup is needed for this. Other methods that are usefull in controlling ich are to syphon the substrate as often as you can. If you can do this every couple of days then do so. Just top off with new salt water.

If you can't let your main system go fallow then you pretty much have to try the above items as best you can to get to the point of letting the parasite die off. Just make sure to QT any new arrivals so you don't introduce new parasites. If you can net a fish with obvious parasites attached to it you can give them a dip in methylene blue.

All the above is just one way to combat this. It was also just an overview but should contain enough info to use. If anyone has questions or wants more information let me know and maybe I can write up a more detailed instruction set/article on the tank to tank transfer method and uses of methylene blue in QT procedures (what it treats, ways to use it, etc).

This is only one way to treat the fish and other methods are copper and hyposalinity.

Carlo

PS again, sorry to hear about your tang!
 
K

katlongo

Carlo,

Can't you use hyposalinity instead of the transferring back and forth to rid the ich? I hypo all of my new fish purchases for 3 weeks (5 weeks total - 1 week to bring the salinity down, 3 weeks at hypo and 1 week to bring the salinity up). It's my understanding that you could technically hypo your entire display tank to rid the system of ich, but would probably lose corals and inverts that can't tolerate 1.009 for three weeks.
 
Phyl

Phyl

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
Ich can be in your system for a long long time, just waiting. Waiting for your fish to stress, your parameters to shift, whatever. Then BAM, your fish become susceptible when they otherwise weren't. It is a long waiting game. Unless you FALLOW every single addition (from frags to inverts) and hypo/copper/treat all fish that come into your system you could be introducing it and not know it.
 
C

Carlo

katlongo said:
Carlo,

Can't you use hyposalinity instead of the transferring back and forth to rid the ich? I hypo all of my new fish purchases for 3 weeks (5 weeks total - 1 week to bring the salinity down, 3 weeks at hypo and 1 week to bring the salinity up). It's my understanding that you could technically hypo your entire display tank to rid the system of ich, but would probably lose corals and inverts that can't tolerate 1.009 for three weeks.
Click to expand...

Yes you can use hypo or copper for that matter. Copper is a poison and can't be used with all fish. Hypo can also cause problems itself. The major reason I myself don't like hypo is that you have to nail the salinity exactly right.0.001 to high and the treatment doesn't work. I'd only recommend it for those people with digital salinity meters that have been calibrated for the range needed for hypo. I'd never use a hydrometer or other non reliable method to check the salinity levels if doing hypo. Many people using hydrometers don't even use them correctly even when calibrated as they forget to cross reference the temperature on the chart to find the "real specific gravity" and not just what the hydrometer is showing. The other reason I don't like to advocate it is that there is atleast one strain of cryptocaryon irritans that are immunine to hypo. Knowing one strain is immunine is enough to not use it in my book.

Both copper and hyposalinity can't be used with some type of fish. Some handle copper better then hypo and vice versa. With the tank to trank transfer method you can use it with anything (even inverts) and there is no long term adverse effect. The T to T method also works with marine velvet and best of all only requires 8 days of QT before any new fish can make it into the display tank.

In a nutshell you can use any of the 3 methods most of the time but I just happen to prefer this one method as it can be used with fish or inverts (copper and hypo can't).

Carlo
 
Edwardw771

Edwardw771

NJRC Member
Carlo,

I'm going to set up the two tanks like you mentioned. Do you think you can come by one night and help me with this crap. i don't I can handle any more fish dieing. I might have to have a coral only tank.

As far as how it got in there. I'm not really sure. I think it was the temp changes. Not that its been really crazy changes lately but over the past few months I have had issues. I still don't think the AC3 is working correctly.

Thanks everyone for your comments and help.
 
C

Carlo

Ed said:
Carlo,

I'm going to set up the two tanks like you mentioned. Do you think you can come by one night and help me with this crap. i don't I can handle any more fish dieing. I might have to have a coral only tank.

As far as how it got in there. I'm not really sure. I think it was the temp changes. Not that its been really crazy changes lately but over the past few months I have had issues. I still don't think the AC3 is working correctly.

Thanks everyone for your comments and help.
Click to expand...

I'd be more then willing to help you out Ed only I might need a ride. I'm going to court tomorrow afternoon and will more then likely loose my license for a minimum of 3 (hopefully) months from the goofy DWI charge last month.

The only way to get marine ich is to transfer it into the tank since it's a parasite. You may have had it for a long time and not knew it but then something stressed the fish out (like temp change) and it wasn't able to fight off the pasasites...

I'm going through exactly the procedure mentioned above right now for my new tank system. So far I've got 8 chromas, 4 yellow tail damnsels and a powder blue tang who just went through it and have made it back into my new tank. I've still got a couple dozen or so fish in QT (just starting round two) as well as some frags and a couple of corals. If it wasn't for me presently using the 6 QT tanks I'd let you use them.

Carlo

PS If you don't mind swinging by Bordentown and picking me up I think I've got every night free this week.
 
Edwardw771

Edwardw771

NJRC Member
Here is my program Chris. Carlo I'll let you know. When I'm ready.

LT1&-A01
LT2$-A02
PM1#-A03
PM2#-A04
HET%-A05
COL%-A06
OZN&-A07
CO2&-A08
ALM&-A09


If Time > 13:10 Then LT1 ON
If Time > 22:00 Then LT1 OFF
If Time > 13:00 Then LT2 ON
If Time > 22:00 Then LT2 OFF
If Time > 10:58 Then PM1 ON
If Time > 23:00 Then PM1 OFF
If Temp < 76.0 Then HET ON
If Temp > 78.0 Then HET OFF
If Temp < 76.0 Then COL ON
If Temp > 78.0 Then COL OFF
If Temp > 84.0 Then LT1 OFF
If Temp > 84.0 Then LT2 OFF
If ORP < 365 Then OZN ON
If ORP > 385 Then OZN OFF
If pH > 08.45 Then CO2 ON
If pH < 08.35 Then CO2 OFF
If Time > 00:00 Then ALM OFF
If pH > 08.50 Then ALM ON
If pH < 08.00 Then ALM ON
If ORP > 450 Then ALM ON
If ORP < 300 Then ALM ON
If Temp < 75.0 Then ALM ON
If Temp > 78.0 Then ALM ON
 
C

cmsurfr22

what does col stand for?

what temperature range are you shooting for and what is actually happening? can you look at the log and tell me what the min temp and max temp were since the last time you changed the program?
 
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