QT advice…

[fatoldsun]

I have a QT set up for some new fish I picked up. Fish came from QT in hypo-salinity (1.012). Problems seem cleared up and he claims they have been for 3-4 weeks. (I'm still keeping them in QT for a while and then introducing them slowly to avoid upsetting my bioload.) My plan is to do water changes at 5g every other day or so (QT is 33g) at 1.026 to gradually bring up salinity. When I’m doing changes is it better to use “new” saltwater or should I take 5g from my display and use that? Is the bacteria from my DT a good thing for the QT or am I better with clean, sterile SW?
Initially I took 25+g from the seller’s QT to ease the transition, and used 5g from my DT and 5g new SW to start my QT. Also, I'm using a HOB bio-wheel filter and the wheels have been marinating in my sump for about 4-5 months. Prior they were in use so they should be nicely colonized with bacteria.

 

[MadReefer]

I don't have a QT setup but think you would want new water not old water. At least its what I would do if had a QT.
You would provide trace elements, etc. that were used up in the QT and DT tanks.

 

[NikkiT]

Glad to hear you have your QT tank set up.
I am a big believer in using new water for a QT setup, if possible. I like to match the new water I have mixed to the parameters of the water the fish have come from.
In my opinion, you have brought in fish that had a problem and you should do everything possible to avoid bringing that problem into your system. You do not want any of the bacteria that might have come over with them getting into your display tank if you can avoid it. Avoidance technique No. 1: make cross-contamination as difficult as possible. That means don't use a container that comes into contact with one tank in the other without disinfecting it first. Avoidance technique no. 2: unless you know and trust the system an animal comes from, do. not. take. water. from. the. other. system. Clearly, it is already too late for that. I would not introduce water from your DT either. The fish in your QT system are stressed already. Now, one option is to mix up a big batch of saltwater at a SG very close or at the current SG of your QT system, bring it up to temp, drain the QT system, sterilize it, and refill it. Depending on how the fish are doing, that may do more harm than good at this point.
As far as the SG goes, I personally believe 1.012 is way too low. However, you are correct that you need to bring up SG slowly. If I were you, I would slowly bring it up to about 1.020 if you want to remain in hypo, up to 1.026 if you do not. If my math is correct (and I make no promises there), if you add 5 g of 1.026, you'll bring the SG up to 1.014 on the first change, 1.0158 on the second change, 1.017 on the third change, 1.018 on the fourth change, 1.019 on the fifth change, 1.020 on the sixth change. If you do water changes every other day, you will be at 1.020 by day 12, which might be faster than you want to go, depending on how delicate the animals in QT are. What types of animals are in QT right now? There are some fish that do not handle hypo well, and others that have horrible survival rates in a QT type system.
Now, as far as the HOB goes, do you have a sponge in there? Carbon? I have run tanks with biowheel filters before, and I personally do not like the biowheel. I find the that a sponge provides a better media for bacteria than the biowheel. If I can make a suggestion, stick a few sponges into your sump instead of the extra biowheels (you are of course getting some cross-contamination via the sponge filter, if you use it, but significantly smaller amounts than you would if you were adding water directly from the DT). The bacteria that break down nitrates and nitrites when submerged, vs. the bacteria that break down nitrates and nitrites in the biowheel, exposed to air, are not the same.

 

[fatoldsun]

Thanks Nikki. I think your math is spot on - I already brought it up to 1.014 and 1.020 is my goal for the end of week 2. I think I will wait until then before I attempt to do the whole remove all - sterilize, replace. I think the move was stressful enough. I'm also worried b/c I don't think these guys like the close quarters. Before I was able to pick the fish up from the seller (due to the storm and then I was away last week) he lost a coral beauty, a damsel and a royal gramma. He told me the damsel was picked off by another damsel - well here's the list. It may help clear it up
There's a Foxface - ~3.25", a Singapore Angel - ~2", one remaining yellow tail damsel - ~1", a Tomini Tang >2" and a blue hippo @2", but wait there's more - 4 Mollies converted to SW, all about 1.5". So a lot of fish for a 33g QT. I was torn, I was sure they'd all die if I left them - Original plan was to only take the Hippo and the coral beauty (was worried about the Singapore b/c they are reef safe "with caution" gulp, the fox face b/c my wife is generally opposed to anything as dangerous as a scorpion living in the house, the Tomini b/c I wasn't sure how it would play with my Yellow Tang, and the damsel b/c well, they have a bad rep. as aggressive - I would have left the mollies if I was only taking a couple) but the water was murky and they were in a column that just looked bad. he was doing occasional 3g WCs and hadn't tested anything until I urged him to so I decided to chance it with all of them. Now after he lost the damsel, he said the Royal Gramma and the Coral Beauty were killed by the Singapore - not sure I believe that based on the water conditions. To be safe I put in a divider of eggcrate to keep the Singapore and the foxface separated from the others. That failed – I figured the mollies could get across but even the foxface has managed to move back and forth through the single 2”x.25” spot I used to hold the eggcrate in place. Anyway, I wish I had the confidence to have moved them right to all new water but I was afraid I wouldn’t be able to match the parameters without a sample of his water and time to get everything just right. That was the first mistake. Second mistake, I took 5 g from my DT tank which I of course needed to replace. I then pumped directly into the QT from my mixing drum and when I killed the pump about a gallon siphoned back into the drum so my new SW was contaminated. Like I said, I had to replace the 5 gallons so my fingers are crossed that I don’t have major problems. I sort of panicked and had I thought it through I could have made up 5g in about an hour but I didn’t go that route - so that’s where I am – I have the Singapore, Foxface, 2 tangs, damsel and 4 molies in a 33 long and no chance of getting them out for at least 4 weeks to 8 weeks as I move them SLOWLY to my DT. Hopefully they are better off now than they were but I’m far from confident – it was with the best intentions….

 

[MadReefer]

I give you an A++ for taking the fish from a bad environment and trying to give them a better home.
I hope it all works out well for you.

 

[JRWOHLER]

I have used my DT tank water to increase salinity in my QT. I looked at it as a cost saving plus helping to match my parameters. I would agree with Nikki when I bring fish in to my QT I do a quick fresh water dip if possible and then into my QT which is a little lower salinity then the tanks I get fish from ...if LFS has 1.023 I start mine in 1.020 and then drop down to 1.009. I keep them there using water changes on an every other day basis with 1.009 water for 3-4 weeks then start to bring up with my DT tank water. So far so good.

 

[fatoldsun]

I give you an A++ for taking the fish from a bad environment and trying to give them a better home.
I hope it all works out well for you.

Thanks - I just hope I have enough knowledge to provide a better environment.
Also, to add to above - I have a coralife 125 super skimmer that I was going to try and set up as a HOB - it was included with the package when I bought my tank. That guy used it "in sump" in a wet/dry. So far I haven't been able to get it working right - I think it's missing a valve off the feed pump to slow down the flow for HOB b/c it's sitting too close to the water level. Also possible that it's just been sitting too long - also the bubble diffuser box sits too low - basically I need to mod the HOB bracket to move the whole thing up. Hopefully I can do this soon b/c I want to keep them well fed so they don't harass each other but I can't do that w/o a skimmer or my Ammonia could spike.

 

[MadReefer]

I always heard those skimmers are crap.
If you are doing regular water changes your ammonia should not spike or not to much anyway.

 

[fatoldsun]

I always heard those skimmers are crap.
If you are doing regular water changes your ammonia should not spike or not to much anyway.

It seems pretty crappy but it was just sitting in the garage, and well that means the price was right - I figured it would be better than nothing but I do intend to to regular WCs so hopefully that will be sufficient so if it turns out to just "suck" I'll scrap the idea

 

[JRWOHLER]

I suggest doing regular water changes...with barebottom tank you will get rid of most of the solid waste. Skimmer no matter how crappy(assuming it actually runs) will help with gas exchange so that is good...worth doing for that alone I would say.

 

[NikkiT]

It seems pretty ***** but it was just sitting in the garage, and well that means the price was right - I figured it would be better than nothing but I do intend to to regular WCs so hopefully that will be sufficient so if it turns out to just "suck" I'll scrap the idea

I agree with James on using the skimmer. When you do your water changes, syphon from the bottom of the tank. I know you were already planning to do frequent changes, you might want to consider keeping the SG in your water change water low to allow the SG to slowly come up to 1.026. If you are QTing for 4 weeks, and you want to maintain hypo, then let it come up nice and slow. If you want to do freshwater baths, and you don't know how, speak up.

As you know, that all those fish are a heavy bioload for a 33g. Do you have an ammonia badge? They are not the most accurate things in the world, but in a QT with as many fish as you are caring for, water parameters can change fast, and they can serve as the canary in the coal mine.
As far as keeping those fish in QT, and dividing with egg crate, another option is to provide small breeder baskets the fish can retreat to, or various sizes of pipes, flower pots, or mugs. Adequate hiding spaces will reduce stress, and hopefully help you get as many of these fish as possible through QT. As to feeding, I know it is expensive, but have you considered feeding live food for the next few weeks as a means to reduce the amount of pollution into the tank?

 

[fatoldsun]

If I can get the skimmer running I'll use it... can't hurt. I think the QT has lots of hiding spots

Probably went overboard with that. Since the divider has failed me I think I'll remove it.
here's a quick video link http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee503/dzipin/d1ba3d55.mp4

Everyone seems good except the hippo tang's been behaving oddly (seen in bid) but at other times it's out and about and seems to be eating. Just likes that weird hiding spot.

Now I'm unsure about my schedule. If I take the guy at his word the fish have been ich free for 5 weeks at 1.010 (dbl checked his note and he said he started raising it for me-hence why it was 1.012 when I got them. So do I go 4 more weeks at 1.009 or trust him and start to raise it? I'd hate to do all this in vain but I also must remember my blunder with the water Sunday so my fingers are crossed that I didn't hurt my tank with that

Ok, fresh water bath... This is me speaking up. No idea how to do that safely. If it's necessary and helpful, sign me up

Food, I have a mix of homemade that I'm trying. Always used pellets before and my two were happy but these guys are on this diet so why mess with it. But live food? What and from where? Won't the hypo kill anything I put in?

 

[JRWOHLER]

I would keep them two more weeks at 1.009-1.010 if no signs of sickness then you can start to raise it.

Hippo tangs are..well they are. Mine is the strangest of the bunch, will either chase other fish on occasion or run and wedge itself in between rocks at the sight of you. Schizo...so don't worry so long as it is eating. Try to give a good variety of food so everyone eats. Soak it in Selcon or another supplement to keep up their health. I like nori with garlic also.

Good that you have bubbler too.
You need to match PH and temp when you do fresh water bath. It is a questionable practice some swear by it some say it is more dangerous then it is worth....your fish will sometimes freak out FYI.

 

[NikkiT]

Freshwater dip instructions: start with clean ro water. Bring up to tank temp. Test ph of tank water. add buffer (or plain old baking soda) to the ro water to match the ph of the qt tank. Pour a small amount into a container with a cover. Catch and dip fish. Cover the container to keep the fish from jumping out (every fish i have ever dipped has either jumped or bonked itself on the head trying to jump). It will thrash around, then likely lie on it's side, panting heavily. Watch it. Do not leave the room. Leave in dip no longer (in my opinion) than 8-10 min. The fish will not look happy in the dip. Do not expect it to. It is going from an environment where it has to work to retain water to an environment where water is flooding into it's cell membranes. The reason we dip is because the freshwater dip bursts the cell membranes of the parasites attacking the fish, don't think for one second that it is fun for the fish.

There is a formula for how much baking soda to add, When I find it, ill post it here again. The Kent buffer has info on the back of the container.

 

[NikkiT]

I consider freshwater dips a last resort to try to save a sick fish with visible parasites that either is not responding to treatment, or is a species that is sensitive to the recommended treatment (ie copper and angels). If your fish exhibit no signs of parasites, I would not dip them, but keep in mind that there are others who dip every fish they bring home.

 

[fatoldsun]

I consider freshwater dips a last resort to try to save a sick fish with visible parasites that either is not responding to treatment, or is a species that is sensitive to the recommended treatment (ie copper and angels). If your fish exhibit no signs of parasites, I would not dip them, but keep in mind that there are others who dip every fish they bring home.[/QUOTE
Thanks. Good to know there are other options if things get bad. I think I'll hold off on the dips unless I see some signs of distress. Otherwise I'll be dropping to 1.009 for 2 weeks and scraping what's left of the tainted NSWThanks for all the suggestions. It's a long road all culminating in trying to add them to a DT which is home to a lg maroon clown and a lg. yellow tang that haven't shared since last thanksgiving.