Sand detritus question

MadReefer · Apr 20, 2012

I have posted a few times now my hair algae problems. Tonight I scraped all the HA off the overflow and back glass in preparation of the inerts I m getting tomorrow. I kept the pump by the overflow off and the other side on to get as much loose HA and crap through the filter sock and into the skimmer. I noticed that the slightest movement of sand caused a gross cloud of crap.
I am wondering is this feeding my HA?
Should I stir up the sand daily and let the skimmer do its job?
Any other opinions / comments appreciated.

I also tested my RODI and distilled water for Nitrate and they were 0.
Tomorrow I will test them for phosphate.
I did read on that distilled water is free of nitrate and phosphate but not sure how true that it is.

spotter · Apr 20, 2012

When you think about where nitrates come from...ammonia converted to nitrites then converted to nitrates....this would say that it would be almost impossible for RODI or distilled water to have nitrates present. I think its a good possibility that the cloud is part of your ha problem. Have you stepped up the frequency of your water changes?

MadReefer · Apr 20, 2012

Steve,
I just realized this and don't siphon from the bottom of the tank because it always sucked up much sand. Which is why I asked if I should stir up the sand.
I could just siphon out the sand at each water change and go some what bare bottom. I would need to figure out something for the bottom so you don't see into the sump.
Probably tape something from under the cabinet.

taz_12777 · Apr 21, 2012

When I siphon the sand bed I try to get the top layer and not so far down. If to much sand gets into the siphon I just raise the tube. Works out well.

MadReefer · Apr 21, 2012

I will try and get a video of how dirty it is.
If the distilled water test 0 for phosphates I will do a 15g water change sucking water from the bottom, cleaning the sand. If some sand gets sucked up, oh well. Using the distilled will allow me to do a WC quicker.

MadReefer · Apr 21, 2012

Video of the sand stirred up.

[video]http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll247/mavl666/FT equip/?action=view&current=P2040179.mp4[/video]

falconut · Apr 21, 2012

My sand bed is between 1" - 2", so I vacuum it or stir it up on a weekly basis. Stir it using a turkey baster and blow on it to get the tanish junk suspended and out of the sand. If I use the wide tube type of syphon, it doesn't take up too much sand. My sand it a mixture of fine playsand to larger grain argonite.

downbeach · Apr 21, 2012

I have a DSB, between 4 and 7 inches of sugar sized oolitic aragonite. I don't do anything to it, but I do have a couple of conch's. I do have enough water flow there that gives me some water flow, without creating a sand storm.

MadReefer · Apr 21, 2012

I picked up a Phosphate test kit today, API, should have bought another brand as it goes 0, 0.25 etc. Anyway, tested the RODI and no color change in the water, same with the distilled water. I tested the DT water and there was barely a color change. If I hold the vial against the card it is yellow. So again no phosphate.
To recap:
Distilled water - 0ppm Nitrate and Phosphate
RODI water = 0ppm Nitrate and Phosphate
DT water - 8ppm Nitrate, 0ppm Phosphate

In speaking with Jon, COPPS, it seems all my problems are in the sand; well most anyway. He suggested I pull all the sand and go with bigger granuals that can be siphoned with removing sand. Or I can bare bottom. I will try the gravel vac and see how clean it gets and how much sand I loose.

downbeach · Apr 21, 2012

Get a Hanna meter for PO4, chemical test kits are very unreliable and inacurate for that particular test.

howze01 · Apr 22, 2012

I wouldn't trust that test result as far as I can throw it.... even though that's pretty far I still wouldn't trust it. The hair algae is masking any phosphate readings you're getting. If it were 0 you wouldn't have hair algae.

If you vacuum the sand bed you're going to lose most, if not all of it. Not really a bad thing but be very careful. If your rocks are on top of the sand that's just asking for a landslide.

What size tank is this? Do you have a lot of fish? I'm just thinking it may just be easier to start over than go through all these little Band-Aid fixes. With what you know now you could do a lot different.....

MadReefer · Apr 22, 2012

Jonathan it is 75g DT with 30g sump. I plan to suck whatever sand I can easily get to while doing 5g water changes every week. I have a 1/2 deep sand; just for looks.
After this as sand moves out from flow/fish I will also suck that up. I will keep the tank bare bottom going forward.

spotter · Apr 23, 2012

Mark...is there any way you can do a large, one time water change? If you do a 5g change thats about 5% of your TWV, you will only reduce your nitrate level by 5%. I dont remember what your nitrate levels have been running at but lets say they are at 40ppm, a 5% wc will only drop them to 38ppm. I think if you can do a large change now and then try to do at least a 10% wc every week you will get your nitrates under control. Removing the detritus is a good start but now you have to export the nitrates that are in the water column and the easiest way to do that is by performing a large water change. Take a look at this article about quantifying the amount of water changes and the impact it has on your nitrate level.

http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Articles/TonyGriffitts/Water_Changes.htm

MadReefer · Apr 23, 2012

Steve,
I have seen that article, thanks. From what I was told is that all the dirt in my sand probably contributing to phosphate, nitrate and HA. It was suggested to remove the sand slowly not to disrupt the bio-load. Once I have all the sand out then concentrate on water changes.

NikkiT · Apr 23, 2012

As you begin removing the sand bed, you are stirring it up, essentially dumping nutrients trapped in the sand bed into the water colum.
If you do 5g weekly water changes, and stirr up your sand bed, in my honest opinion you are likely to crash your tank.
If you are going to remove the sand bed a little at a time, I would consider doing large +30% weekly water changes.

You could also remove it all at once. Step one: remove live rock. Step two: remove fish and inverts. Step three: drain tank. Step four: remove sand bed. Step five: put as much (relatively) clean water from the tank back in as was salvaged. Step 6: add live rock back in. Step seven: fill tank. Step eight: add inverts (starting with snails) then fish, the sensitive inverts (shrimp crabs etc) then coral back in.
A change like this can be done in a day.

MadReefer · Apr 23, 2012

Nikki, funny you said that as there were some opinions at the meeting whether to do it slowly or all at once. Majority rule was to do slowly.
I don't plan to stir up the sand bed. Sick a good size hose into the sand and suck it out. Most of the dirt will get sucked along. Your comments on
a tank crash was why many said to do it slowly.

jgraz · Apr 23, 2012

Nikki gave me the same direction when I changed my sandbed and it went smooth as silk.
Now I'm not expert but I did stay in a holiday inn once and as far a bare bottom goes I believe you need to make sure you have enough flow to keep the waste off the bottom. Mabye some of the bare bottom guys can chime in here. There is also a lengthy discussion on going with a bare bottom tank on reef central. I forget the name of the thread though. Should be easy to find.

MadReefer · Apr 23, 2012

I am not saying Nikki is wrong. Just what discussion took place.
I can't make large quantities of water so will do the best I can.
If the small changes start to kick up to much dirt floating in the water column then obviously I will stop immediately and regroup.

jgraz · Apr 23, 2012

I'm sorry if what I wrote came out wrong. I'm not saying anyone was wrong I was just adding to Nikki's suggestion to replacing all at once. And I think I read a few post ago about you considering no substrate that's why I suggested the reef central thread

spotter · Apr 23, 2012

mark if you want....I have an extra 44g brute can on a dolly with a float valve so you can hook it up to your rodi that you can have. I have no need for it now that I have larger storage tanks. I know I sound like a broken record but I really believe the water changes will be the key to fixing your problems.

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