stray voltage

[jgraz]

So for starters I have some stray voltage in the tank. I have yet been unable to fully locate it using the dip your finger in method. They reason why if that I feel it all the time but sometimes it feels stronger then others and i can't tell if its my imagination or not. I also think that some might be coming from my Apex EB-8. I don't know if thats even possible seeing as though it does not touch water, but does have things plugged in that are submerged. If I unplug different equipment from that eb-8 I feel no difference, but if I shut down power to it I can feel a difference.
I truly believe I have more then 1 item causing it so first what tool do I need to assist me in the search?
And can a piece of equipment that is not submerged cause stray voltage?

As far as live stock concerns, all fish and inverts seem just fine. I have noticed some unexplained STN in a few acros but not all of them.

Any and all thoughts are welcomed

 

[saltkreep88]

Just a basic 10 dollar multimeter is all you need. Saltwater will carry a slight static charge just because it is saltwater.

 

[saltkreep88]

And I would have to think it would have to be in the water.

 

[horseplay]

Once you've confirmed stray voltage in the tank you can start unplugging each items to find the offending item.

 

[jgraz]

Ok so my findings, and it just adds to my confusion.

Last night I acquired a multimeter and learned to use it(I think). As a test I set it to 200 V~ and inserted the probes into a known live outlet and the readout showed about 120 give or take, so I figure I'm good to go. So I go over to the tank and with the black probe inserted into an outlet and the red probe in the aquarium I get a readout of about 100. For fun I stick my finger in and yes I still feel the tingle. So stray voltage confirmed........Right? Just to see what other readings I get I tested my saltwater mixing station and the reading was 34. I cannot feel a tingle in this tank, but if I open the valve to allow water to enter my main system as I would do during a water change, I can indeed feel the tingle in there also(I assume its traveling through the water). Anyway back to the main system.

Here is where I start to question my findings. I begin turning things off 1 by 1. Now I am turning them off, not unplugging, and I'm only checking items that are in water. The readings on the multimeter never change. No matter what piece of equipment I turn off it does not change. I decided to turn off that whole EB-8 in question also and again no change in readings. I now start to unplug things, again no change. At this point I have either turned off or unplugged any equipment that is in water. The only equipment to my knowledge that I did not turn off or unplug is my lights, and Vortechs, both of which have no wires in the water. So I end my search and my night by once again sticking my finger I the water and feeling the tingle and go to bed disappointed.

A new day begins at 3:30am as I have to go to work. I head down to the basement where I usually get ready so as not to disturb the family. Early yesterday morning before getting dressed I went to the tank and I did not feel this tingle. At the time I didn't put much stock into it and just filed it away. Well today I tried again and indeed the tell tale tingle I've been so graciously receiving as of late is absent. Now I did not have the multimeter handy at the time but I will test it tomorrow morning when I wake up. Now the only equipment that does not operate at night is my T5's on both the DT and Frag tanks. Both light fixtures are 3 plugs total, 2 for lamps and one for fans.

In conclusion, The lack of this tingle in the early morning hrs and the constant readings on the multimeter during the equipment check has me questioning whether I am using this properly or if I am indeed missing some way in for the voltage. Can a piece of equipment that is not submerged cause stray voltage? Can the voltage ride its way in from another source?

 

[saltkreep88]

How are the lights hung?

 

[redfishbluefish]

Wait, you put one of the probes into an outlet. The problem with this is that if you put that probe into the "live" side, you are simply verifying that your tank is grounded. You can use one of the slots in an outlet assuming it was wired correctly. The longer slot is the neutral slot, and that can be used. I'd first verified that it is the neutral side by sticking one probe in there and the other on the little screw in the center of the outlet cover plate. You should get zero volts. And FYI, this is alternating current testing, so the color of the probe doesn't matter.

Retest your tank now knowing that you have a good ground.

If it's still 100 volts, you have a problem.

Now you mentioned some time tingle, some time not. The first thing that comes to mind are heaters. They turn on and off. When off, there would be no voltage being supplied to them.

One last point, you will always find some small amount of voltage in your tank....from induced voltage. Things that spin within a field will produce voltage, and with all the pumps we have, you get a small amount of voltage produced for that.

Hope this helps.

 

[jgraz]

Wait, you put one of the probes into an outlet. The problem with this is that if you put that probe into the "live" side, you are simply verifying that your tank is grounded. You can use one of the slots in an outlet assuming it was wired correctly. The longer slot is the neutral slot, and that can be used. I'd first verified that it is the neutral side by sticking one probe in there and the other on the little screw in the center of the outlet cover plate. You should get zero volts. And FYI, this is alternating current testing, so the color of the probe doesn't matter.

Retest your tank now knowing that you have a good ground.

If it's still 100 volts, you have a problem.

Now you mentioned some time tingle, some time not. The first thing that comes to mind are heaters. They turn on and off. When off, there would be no voltage being supplied to them.

One last point, you will always find some small amount of voltage in your tank....from induced voltage. Things that spin within a field will produce voltage, and with all the pumps we have, you get a small amount of voltage produced for that.

Hope this helps.

Ok Paul let me go over this so I understand. I know you said the colors don't mean anything but work with me here.

So I have no outlet close enough to my system for me to reach the water and the outlet at the same time with the probes so I need to use an extension cord. Lets assume I put the red probe in the longer slot, and the black probe on the screw for the wall plate. If I get zero volts I can proceed to the tank.
The red probe remains in the long slot and the black probe goes in the water correct? Any reading shows voltage, but a low reading might just be normal stuff. How low?

As far tingle its not exactly sometime "yes" and sometime "no". So far the only time I have not felt it was during these early morning hours. and even with all the heaters off I still felt the tingle.........I think, after a while I'm not sure if I'm feeling it or not.



Oh and the lights are hung from the ceiling above the DT and hung from a PVC stand erected above the frag tank

 

[Paul B]

If your reading is any less than about 108 volts, then it is induced electricity and is no problem, go back to sleep, maybe have a glass of Merlot. Are you sure you are reading your meter correctly and have it set on AC voltage possibly with a little picture like this next to the setting - - - - with this over it ______ I can't make the AC symbol on my computer, but as long as it says AC volts that's fine. (not DC) If you had actual current leaking into your tank and not just induced voltage then you would get more than a tingle and would be thrown across the room, maybe breaking that bottle of Merlot as you fly. Any power from a wall outlet induces voltage into any conductor near it. Right now your computer is inducing voltage into your head. not a pleasant thought is it?
Your lights, if they are near the tank will also induce some voltage into the tank. I Know I keep interchanging voltage and current but don't worry about that, I am an electrician and in this case, it really doesn't matter what you call the tingle.
Do you have your "stuff" plugged into a GFCI receptacle? If yes and it is not tripping, continue sipping that Merlot and go back to bed. If you want to make it so it doesn't tingle, put in a ground probe as I have in my tank for about 50 years. You can easily make one for free but that is for a different thread or you can read it in my book. If you do not use a GFCI or a ground probe, don't mention that on this or any other forum because of the arguments that will ensue.

(Master Electrician 40 years)

 

[redfishbluefish]

John, lets start with color again, with alternating current (AC) there is no "positive" and "negative" sides. It's either hot or it's not. So with AC volts, it doesn't matter what probe goes where. Red here, black there....reverse them, and you'll get the same result. If you wish to continue using it the way you are using it as far as putting the black probe into your tank, that's just fine. I just wanted to point out that you could reverse the probes, and you'd get the same result. Now if it was DC volts, this would be a different story.

Yes, you can use an extension cord. Here's what I'd do just to make sure the meter is reading correctly and the outlet is wired correctly. I'm going to assume you have a three wire cord...that is, it also has the roundish plug for a ground below and between the two slots.

I'd try these combinations to make sure everything is working right.

I will use probe 1 and probe 2 to describe each probe...again, color doesn't matter.

Probe 1 in long slot; probe 2 in short slot = 120 volts (note, this might vary house to house, but close to 120 volts)
Probe 1 in long slot; probe 2 in round slot (ground) = 0 volts
Probe 1 in round slot, probe 2 in short slot = 120 volts

Now, it all that checks out, you can use either the long slot or the round slot as your "ground" to measure voltage in your tank. So one probe in the water of your tank, the other probe in the long slot or round slot, and now read voltage.

John, if you wish, I could stop by and give you a hand.

 

[jgraz]

Ok so here are my new findings.

Test on outlet
Probe 1 long slot, probe 2 in round or plate screw= 1.5volts

All other configs=115volts

Aquarium test:
Probe 1 long slot, probe 2 in aquarium=6.0 volts

In turning off and on different items this varies. The biggest difference is with all three heaters off it drops to 3.8. I can still feel the tingle just not as strong.

Nothing else moves the meter that much. I will test again in the early morning hours to see if this remains the same.

Make sense

In comparison my mix tank measures 1.2 with the pump on and .6 with it off.

 

[jgraz]

Double post

 

[redfishbluefish]

John, are you sure you don't have a cut on your hand. 6 volts isn't that bad. I'm surprised you can feel that. Are you barefooted, standing in water to feel that tingle?

 

[kschweer]

John, are you sure you don't have a cut on your hand. 6 volts isn't that bad. I'm surprised you can feel that. Are you barefooted, standing in water to feel that tingle?

Good point Paul. I notice small amounts of voltage with small cuts on my hands and the fact that I bite my fingernails really short.

 

[jgraz]

John, are you sure you don't have a cut on your hand. 6 volts isn't that bad. I'm surprised you can feel that. Are you barefooted, standing in water to feel that tingle?

Good point Paul. I notice small amounts of voltage with small cuts on my hands and the fact that I bite my fingernails really short.

As a matter of fact I have a small cut on my thumb. That is what sent me on this now apparent wild good chase. I never felt it before and I figured it was wrong so I went looking. So I guess all is OK?

My thumb is in fact the only finger I feel this on.

 

[Paul B]

Use your toe, then drink some Merlot like I originally mentioned.

 

[grink]

Glad it worked out!