submersible pump(s) Opinions please!

[Ironhorseiv]

Hello All . . . Another newbie question on planning 120 g setup
Am considering using a flow system similar to this:

PVC and LocLine are the piping components . . .
Would like to read your opinions on the type, mfg, model #, etc. of submersible pumps you would recommend that would run these manifolds in the main tank. Am also planning on a fuge/sump. These manifolds would be for water-flow - possibly including the addition of a "wave-maker" device.
TIA for all who reply!
(Image courtesy of http://www.reefbuilders.com/forums/reef-building-step-step/3623-tale-90-gal-pictures-date.html)

 

[tbone212371]

Wow somebody really planned that one out!!!!
My only opinion is why would you put the ball valves on the inside of the tank?
My personal opinion is that they should be on the outside/ back on the tank so that you don't have to keep putting your hands/ arms in the tank for any reason unless gloved and that still sucks.. Due to oils and contaminats.
Also make sure you have check valves in place right above your return pumps otherwise in case of a power outage or pump failure you will suck that tank dry!!!

 

[Phyl]

The ball valves inside the tank, in this application, where the pumps are also inside of the aquarium, is so that you can adjust the flow to each leg. Usually once you set this you can just about forget it, so them being inside of the tank isn't an issue. Certainly if it was an external closed loop you'd want an additional ball valve on the outside!

I would suggest a Mag 7 for this, except that by the time you put 3 of those inside of your tank you're going to need a chiller the size of an AC unit to combat the heat.

Do you have any idea what pump they recommended in that build thread? External pumps are air cooled rather than water cooled so that the heat the water less. A mag 7, since it is wate cooled would heat the water just as much inside the tank as outside of it.

 

[alex93se]

You may want to reconsider this setup. You'll need to service the pumps regularly and this will be a pita. Also, any accidental bumping on the pipes could cause a avalanche in your rock work. My suggestion would be to run the plumbing out over the tank and to the pump. That way you have an external closed loop without drilling the tank.

BTW, the best pump for your internal application would probably be eheims. Quiet, durable, and gives off less heat than most pumps with the same wattage ratings.

 

[Ironhorseiv]

Wow somebody really planned that one out!!!!
My only opinion is why would you put the ball valves on the inside of the tank?
My personal opinion is that they should be on the outside/ back on the tank so that you don't have to keep putting your hands/ arms in the tank for any reason unless gloved and that still sucks.. Due to oils and contaminants.
Also make sure you have check valves in place right above your return pumps otherwise in case of a power outage or pump failure you will suck that tank dry!!!

Excellent evaluation and points to consider! Especially the idea about the check valve /return pumps...

The ball valves inside the tank, in this application, where the pumps are also inside of the aquarium, is so that you can adjust the flow to each leg. Usually once you set this you can just about forget it, so them being inside of the tank isn't an issue. Certainly if it was an external closed loop you'd want an additional ball valve on the outside!

I would suggest a Mag 7 for this, except that by the time you put 3 of those inside of your tank you're going to need a chiller the size of an AC unit to combat the heat.

Do you have any idea what pump they recommended in that build thread? External pumps are air cooled rather than water cooled so that the heat the water less. A mag 7, since it is water cooled would heat the water just as much inside the tank as outside of it.

The original design called for Rio pumps,

On the left manifold I have a Rio 10HP
On the large center manifold I have a Rio 20HP
On the right manifold I have a Rio 17HP.

Later in the build thread the author indicated that 2 of the manifolds would be on a wave-maker system. However, after reviewing a lot of threads in other boards, I conclude that the Rios produce a significant amount of heat and older models may be subject to "oil" loss resulting in total contamination.

You may want to reconsider this setup. You'll need to service the pumps regularly and this will be a pita. Also, any accidental bumping on the pipes could cause a avalanche in your rock work. My suggestion would be to run the plumbing out over the tank and to the pump. That way you have an external closed loop without drilling the tank.

BTW, the best pump for your internal application would probably be eheims. Quiet, durable, and gives off less heat than most pumps with the same wattage ratings.

Another excellent point - servicing the pumps - I will also give serious thought on how to connect multiple manifolds with an external line.
Please remember, I am a newbie and all of this is very confusing to me! Thanks to everyone for your input and guidance.

 

[Hawkeye]

that pic looks like an aga 90 - hence the one overflow. If you design this for your 120, the 120 will have dual overflows. Just keep that in mind as well...(unless you go with a non-aga tank).

 

[DaveK]

That is certainly one of the most elaborate internal "closed loop" configurations that I've ever seen. Since it's so unusual, especially for that size tank, I'd like to hear why the person selected such a design. While I think it would work OK, I think it's over kill.

In my own tanks I use a length of PVC pipe running lengthwise down the middle of the tank. About every inch I drill holes in the pipe, so that they circulate water across the top of the sandbed. This is connected to a large powerhead in my smaller, 30 gal, and to an external pump in the case of my larger, 125 gal, reef.

After some very bad experiences wit Rio pumps, and I've owned several, I'd never use one in any critical application. The failure rate is just too high. My choice for an internal pump used in this application would be Mag for a low cost pump, and Eheim for a top of the line pump.

 

[freeze]

I'd avoid mags as they throw off so much heat. When I mix salt in my 32 gallon brute container with a mag 7 it brings the water up to 90 degrees I use Eheim pumps now and am very pleased with their performance.

 

[reeftank2510]

I've tried something similiar with one on my tanks and it did not work out very well. I used a Mag 7 and the flow was not enough. By the time the water reached the last run on the line, the flow was very weak. It looks like you are using 3/4 inch PVC. I would take that down to 1/2 inch and see if that helps.

 

[Ironhorseiv]

Thanks everyone for the responses to date. Based on the responses I am looking at setting up this type of closed loop using external pumps. A lot will depend on the configuration of the 125g tank( type of overflows, drilled, non drilled, etc.) Still planning and appreciate all the info.
I am planning on a combo sump/fuge for the main tank and was wondering if anyone uses two (2) external pumps. The idea being that I would use one for a direct return and another one for the closed loop system(if it really can be called a closed lop in this configuration!) So much to learn...

 

[DaveK]

I've tried something similiar with one on my tanks and it did not work out very well. I used a Mag 7 and the flow was not enough. By the time the water reached the last run on the line, the flow was very weak. It looks like you are using 3/4 inch PVC. I would take that down to 1/2 inch and see if that helps.

How long a run of pipe were you making, and what was the pump head distance, IOW the distance the pump had to raise water?

Pumps like MAGs, while good, are not pressure rated. They are fine for returning water from a sump in the stand back to the tank, but they will not work very well if you want to pump water from something like a basement sump, back to the tank. For the later case, you want a pressure rated pump. It will pump less water, but will not suffer as much loss when you need to raise the water up a considerable height.

Reducing the pipe from 3/4" to 1/2" will reduce flow. This is what you don't want to do. What you might be referring to is that the water pressure out of the return didn't seem very high. If that is the case, you can use a 3/4" to 1/2" bushing as the last fitting on the return. You'll still get some slight loss of flow, but nothing compared to changing everything to 1/2" pipe.

 

[DaveK]

Thanks everyone for the responses to date. Based on the responses I am looking at setting up this type of closed loop using external pumps. A lot will depend on the configuration of the 125g tank( type of overflows, drilled, non drilled, etc.) Still planning and appreciate all the info.
I am planning on a combo sump/fuge for the main tank and was wondering if anyone uses two (2) external pumps. The idea being that I would use one for a direct return and another one for the closed loop system(if it really can be called a closed lop in this configuration!) So much to learn...

If at all possible, get a reef ready tank, or have the tank drilled and install internal overflows. You'll save yourself a lot of pain and suffering due to floods caused by external overflows not working correctly.

As for a close loop, you don't need to drill the tank, you can plump it right over the rim of the tank. Since it's a "closed loop" there is no need to worry about it draining the tank if power fails. Of course, drilling the tank, and using bulkhead fittings does make a neater looking job. When you plumb a closed loop, I recommend using true union ball valves on the pump intake and output. They will allow you to close the valves and remove the pump for cleaning, service, or replacement.

 

[Ironhorseiv]

If at all possible, get a reef ready tank, or have the tank drilled and install internal overflows.
You'll save yourself a lot of pain and suffering due to floods caused by external overflows not working correctly.

I am leaning toward a glass tank with internal overflow(s)even trying to understand a "calfo", "coast to coast" internal overflow setup with drilled bulkheads.

As for a close loop, you don't need to drill the tank, you can plump it right over the rim of the tank. Since it's a "closed loop" there is no need to worry about it draining the tank if power fails. Of course, drilling the tank, and using bulkhead fittings does make a neater looking job. When you plumb a closed loop, I recommend using true union ball valves on the pump intake and output. They will allow you to close the valves and remove the pump for cleaning, service, or replacement.

The original article and author indicated that true union ball valves, while expensive, is the way to go..Thanks for reinforcing that advice

 

[DaveK]

Speaking of true union ball valves, here is a website that sells some reasonably priced ones (offsite link) - http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVC-BallValves-TrueUnion

I recently purchased six 1" valves when I redid my tanks plumbing, and the price was only $14.85 each, which waas about 1/2 of what some other well known places were charging.