The danger of NSW.

[Paul B]

Amado, first of all. Good Morning.
My post was not to argue or disagree with you. Many people, probably the majority of reefers use ASW. They have to as most of them don't live near the sea.
I came on this thread because the tital says "The Dangers of NSW".

I think I have the oldest reef on here by far and for most of it's life there has been at least some NSW in it. I started it with scurvy water from the East River. Not one of my best ideas.
But the hobby just started and it is what I could get. Over the years 90% of my water was ASW just because it was to much trouble to collect.

Now for the last 3 years I live near the sea so I collect that. Truth is, I don't see much difference except NSW is free. I also like going to the beach to collect.
I am not trying to get anyone to use NSW, that just leaves more for me.

As for driving cars from the 70s. I love those cars because I was an Oldsmobile mechanic in 1968 when Toronado and 442s came out. Now I would love to get a Model A Ford. I can easily get one but I have no place to store it or I would get one in a minute.

But I have two new Jeeps. Not very exciting and not at all creative like all new cars.

I just pressed a button on my apex from my phone.

I am old and don't even know what that means.

Amado, I like you and am by no means argueing with you. I don't do that as I like I said, I am to old.

 

[amado]

Amado, first of all. Good Morning.
My post was not to argue or disagree with you. Many people, probably the majority of reefers use ASW. They have to as most of them don't live near the sea.
I came on this thread because the tital says "The Dangers of NSW".

I think I have the oldest reef on here by far and for most of it's life there has been at least some NSW in it. I started it with scurvy water from the East River. Not one of my best ideas.
But the hobby just started and it is what I could get. Over the years 90% of my water was ASW just because it was to much trouble to collect.

Now for the last 3 years I live near the sea so I collect that. Truth is, I don't see much difference except NSW is free. I also like going to the beach to collect.
I am not trying to get anyone to use NSW, that just leaves more for me.

As for driving cars from the 70s. I love those cars because I was an Oldsmobile mechanic in 1968 when Toronado and 442s came out. Now I would love to get a Model A Ford. I can easily get one but I have no place to store it or I would get one in a minute.

But I have two new Jeeps. Not very exciting and not at all creative like all new cars.

I am old and don't even know what that means.

Amado, I like you and am by no means argueing with you. I don't do that as I like I said, I am to old.

I like you to Paul I am also not arguing.
Just stating a different opinion. I really like your writing. I have read a few of your post and you are a natural writer.
You should think about a book.

I am also no spring chicken I am 47 so that’s the same as your reef tank.

 

[Paul B]

Almost. But my socks are 47 this week.
Just to prove we are not arguing to the rest of these arguing people, lets dump out our tanks and fill them with damp sawdust. We can dampen it with a little ASW and NSW. We may have to add a little prizapro to eliminate the ants.

Maybe I will write another book titled, "Hey, You want to Argue With Me?

 

[mickeysreef <*))))<]

Why don't you just ask me on my thread? Contrary to popular opinion I don't get all these posts through osmosis. I occasionally pass through and my ears tickle when my name is mentioned.

C'mon buddy, I wanna have a thread too. I know you've got better stories than me, but that's OK. haha, just kidding, this wasn't meant to be a running thread, just wanted to point out that someone could collect brackish water and avoid ich. While I have your attention, I read somewhere (not going to say where) that up to 30% of fish swimming around in the ocean have ich. It was also noted that they would not be re-infected or even have a serious infection because of the large volume of water. More like a minor infection I guess.

If I started with NSW I would not mind. But all the money I dished out am afraid of killing fish and corals.
I have a 2 or 3 gallon AIO maybe I should experiment with that.

Check deals and steals thread, I have a 15g designer tank for sale. perfect for NSW actually.

I am again making water as we speak and I just pressed a button on my apex from my phone.

Can't argue with that.

 

[myrjon]

I had always assumed all fish have ich . Like all of us have cancer (dormant). Something sets it off..

 

[Paul B]

I had always assumed all fish have ich . Like all of us have cancer (dormant). Something sets it off..

Yes all fish in the sea have ich. OK, maybe 0.0237% don't have it, but they my have some kind of social disease instead.

I am going to have to get into this again but it would be much easier if you read it when I posted it 73 times.
Ich is a natural part of the sea. Ich has been there longer than Nancy Pelisi and it is not going away any time soon.

We call ich a parasite because it hangs out on our expensive fish and sucks a little blood. If we don't know what we are doing it will kill our fish but ich is not the enemy. We are. We can't see the face on an ich parasite but I bet if it were cute like the Gerber Baby we would try to raise those parasites and fed them copperband butterflies.

We humans carry thousands of parasites, yes even if, like many of us, we bathe. We have special parasites that live in our eyelashes, behind our ears, under our arms and even in our noses. We don't normally try to eliminate these things by using copper nasal spray. Those parasites do not hurt us just like ich doesn't hurt fish in the sea.

We destroy fish by quarantining or medicating them. OK stop laughing and no, I am not yet senile, Soon, but not today. Everybody here who has some 30 year old fish that have never been quarantined or medicated or been sick and are still spawning.......Raise your hand,,,,,,,Higher.

Healthy fish "need" ich just like they do in the sea. I would never try to eliminate ich and Ihope the NSW I collect is full of it. I will buy a fish from any store even if I see ich in the same tank the fish I want is in. I do it all the time because my fish are immune and have been since the 80s. Yes, that was a dark time when there were no cell phones or computers so if you were a boy and you wanted to meet a girl, you had to stand a few feet from her and make intelligible sounds come out of your mouth.

Here is how ich is supposed to work in a healthy tank. You have a fish in your tank from the sea. A copperband butterfly, clingfish or manta ray, it doesn't matter.
A healthy fish that has not been quarantined or poisoned with copper is covered in slime, all over even on their gills and down their throat.

That slime is not there to make the fish slippery so you have a hard time picking it up. I used to date a girl who was a little slimy, but she didn't have ich.
The slime is full of "anti parasitic" substances which the "healthy" fish constantly exudes from all over the place.

Copper, antibiotics, quarantine, chicken soup will all disrupt the production of anti parasitic substances for different reasons.
Extended quarantine will stop the production of these substances because if you don't use it, you lose it. Slime is very "expensive" in energy for a fish to make as are the antibodies. The fishes immune system depend on occasional meeting of parasites to stay immune. If there are never parasites, like in extended quarantine, the fish will lose that ability to identify and kill parasites. How long it takes is debatable, you will have to ask the fish. But people who run quarantine tanks have fish that have no immunity at all because the fish never encounters parasites.

We get a flu shot every year because if we never encounter the flu, we lose our immunity.
If we have ich in our tank filed with "healthy" fish, we will never lose a fish to any disease. Healthy fish have a full compliment of gut flora or bacteria. Fish that eat mostly dry foods are not healthy. It's true, Sue me.

But if you don't quarantine or medicate, some parasites will live happily in your tank and they will sample a little blood from your fish. It is "good" for the fish and will keep the fish immune.
The disease forum is full of quarantined and medicated fish. Go there and look. The non quarantined fish in the disease forum are there because the owner doesn't know how or doesn't want to keep their fish healthy and immune.

Remember, if there are no parasites, the fish has no immunity from them and as soon as one parasite gets in there which is a given and impossible to keep out if you buy almost anything wet, the fish will get a huge "pandemic" and your fish will die.
You may try to rescue them by fresh water dipping and copper. But then your fish will get something else. It happens constantly. It is not the LFS, wholesaler or the guy in the canoe who caught the fish that is to blame, it is us.

To stay immune, as I said, fish need to meet parasites, but they also need a supply of live gut bacteria. That can come from live worms like white worms which are basically free. It can also come from fresh shellfish. If these things are not fed occasionally. You may be spending time on the disease forum.

 

[myrjon]

Another great write up. And +1 on if there are no parasites, the fish has no immunity from them. I'm on team Paul.

 

[Paul B]

If anyone disagrees with this, send me a SASE. I will steam off the stamp and use the envelope to store worm food. I am old and have PTSD, don't bother me.

 

[erics210]

If I had a beach house, I would certainly invest in a long hose and pump instead of paying a premium for clean boxed salt. BUT just the drive to pick up said salt would make it less practical for me.
The other thing is if I needed to do a large water change, maybe that drive is not possible. Lastly consistency. So for now I am a Boxed Salt guy. We will see what happens in he future.

BTW, Paulie the Mixed Reef is super cool.

 

[Paul B]

I don't have a beach house but live near one. This house on the sea in eastern Long Island I borrowed for a few days. I found a snake under this chair that wanted to spend time with me.