I have my all of my equipment plugged into GFCIs. I ordered a ground probe after reading a horror story on another forum. Then I started reading more about them and didn't realize it was such a heated topic. I know 0 about electricity. Just looking for some insight...
-
Folks, if you've recently upgraded or renewed your annual club membership but it's still not active, please reach out to the BOD or a moderator. The PayPal system has a slight bug which it doesn't allow it to activate the account on it's own.
Thoughts on Ground Probes
- Thread starter dirtycontour
- Start date
Lostinthedark
NJRC Member
Here s a good read on Reef Central.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2219254
It explains why in common terms. You have everything setup the safest way.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2219254
It explains why in common terms. You have everything setup the safest way.
To simplify things:
Pros for ground probe: You don't get electrocuted
Cons fro ground probe: If something is leaking electricity into the tank, it will continue to do so which can crash your tank.
If you have all GFCI you should be fine, also who doesn't love a little tingle when their hands are in the tank?
Pros for ground probe: You don't get electrocuted
Cons fro ground probe: If something is leaking electricity into the tank, it will continue to do so which can crash your tank.
If you have all GFCI you should be fine, also who doesn't love a little tingle when their hands are in the tank?
Controversial…..Here’s my two cents…..and I’ve felt the tingle.
You have volts and you have current. The presence of voltage without current is like a bird sitting on a wire…..loads of voltage, but nowhere to go. This is like your tank with a voltage leak….without a ground.
Current is the flow of electricity…it’s what kills. If you have a grounding probe, you will protect yourself, but leave your tank in a state of constant current flow. In addition, if you were to try to measure for voltage leak with the probe in, you’d get zero….and you wouldn’t even know that you’ve got a problem until you see your fish/coral freaking and dieing.
If you have a voltage leak and put your hands in the tank you’ll most likely feel a tingle. Unless you are well grounded…standing barefoot in water on a concert floor, or holding onto something metal that is grounded, it will only be a tingle. It tells you that you’ve got a problem. Again, with a grounding probe, that leaking piece of equipment will continue to provide current and you won’t know it until fish and coral start dieing and you investigate.
I’ll stick with the tingle that allows me to identify a problem quickly…and I feel, better protects my fish and corals.
You have volts and you have current. The presence of voltage without current is like a bird sitting on a wire…..loads of voltage, but nowhere to go. This is like your tank with a voltage leak….without a ground.
Current is the flow of electricity…it’s what kills. If you have a grounding probe, you will protect yourself, but leave your tank in a state of constant current flow. In addition, if you were to try to measure for voltage leak with the probe in, you’d get zero….and you wouldn’t even know that you’ve got a problem until you see your fish/coral freaking and dieing.
If you have a voltage leak and put your hands in the tank you’ll most likely feel a tingle. Unless you are well grounded…standing barefoot in water on a concert floor, or holding onto something metal that is grounded, it will only be a tingle. It tells you that you’ve got a problem. Again, with a grounding probe, that leaking piece of equipment will continue to provide current and you won’t know it until fish and coral start dieing and you investigate.
I’ll stick with the tingle that allows me to identify a problem quickly…and I feel, better protects my fish and corals.
I think the more important question to ask is... if there is a voltage leak in the sump, can it flow through the return line and affect the display tank?
If it can (and without losing intensity...I'm not an electrician, so I'm clueless here... anyone ever test this?) then the better option would be to not have a probe at all.
If it can't, then there is probably no harm in having a probe in the sump to protect YOU from the tingle. Granted, you won't know when you have a leak this way, but you won't get shocked either. Most likely, you won't have any fish in the sump that would be affected by a leak.
If it can (and without losing intensity...I'm not an electrician, so I'm clueless here... anyone ever test this?) then the better option would be to not have a probe at all.
If it can't, then there is probably no harm in having a probe in the sump to protect YOU from the tingle. Granted, you won't know when you have a leak this way, but you won't get shocked either. Most likely, you won't have any fish in the sump that would be affected by a leak.
fatoldsun
NJRC Member
saltwater is a great conductor - if they're plumbed together, sump, display, doesn't matter. If there's voltage/current in one - it will find its way to the other. The only way to avoid this would be some sort of break in both the drain and the return – which I doubt anyone would have on account of all the bubbles it would cause – and even with that it would probably still pass through – all you need is a very small unbroken stream to act as the link – then again I’m neither an electrician nor an electrical engineer so I may be blowing out my ...
-I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
I did see that thread. I'm thinking I'll plug the probe into my GFCI. I'm just trying to protect myself and my animals.
Am I understanding this correctly. A stray volt in a non grounded tank and your OK? If it is grounded then that is where problems occur? I personally don't have a grounding probe. But was considering it to help protect my investment. But this sound the other way around.
Im confused as well. If the probe is plugged into the GFCI wouldn't it trip the breaker before current got into the tank?
YOU are not OK, but your tank is. When YOU stick your hand into that "electrified" tank, you now become the ground, and the current flows......through you.
That's the way I understood it to be also. But I wasn't sure if going through a mag pump would do anything to diffuse it?
What's a little electricity among friends? This is why when I sell my frags I ask the prospective buyer to grab it from my tank. 
LOL i'm joking !!!!!
When I set up my tank I did get a titanium ground probe. Then after being on this board for a while, I stopped using it. Been at least 3 years since I used one and so far so good.
Speaking of which - anyone want a ground probe? LOL.
LOL i'm joking !!!!!
When I set up my tank I did get a titanium ground probe. Then after being on this board for a while, I stopped using it. Been at least 3 years since I used one and so far so good.
Speaking of which - anyone want a ground probe? LOL.
I stay away from ground probes. If something is leaking into the tank, I want to know. Generally, that is indicative of a potentially failing piece of equipment, and in my case over the years, it has almost ALWAYS been a heater, which will progressively get worse until it fails. I'd rather have an instant indicator of a failing piece of equipment so I can track it down and replace it. And I always start with the heater. They seem to be the category of equipment that shows signs of failure in this manner first.
Wouldn't the power be cut off if the probe was plugged into a GFCI?
I'll throw my hat in the ring...
Gp's and GFCI have two different functions. I personally don't use many gp's, but I would never tell someone not to use one. Just always keep return pumps on a separate circuit from everything else... That is the best advice I have.
This is the best explanation of what can happen....
Originally Posted by jdieck
The grounding probe can be plugged to any grounded (three prung receptacle but the circuit(s) feeding the power to the aquarium equipment need to have GFCI installed to protect the aquarist.
A GFCI does not make the ground probe either necessary or un-necessary but a ground probe makes a GFCI necessary.
Here is the long and detailed answer so please stay with me.
There are several possible cases or scenarios of short circuit in an aquarium system.
Scenario 1. Hot line to water via submerged equipment. This is when a submerged piece of equipment like a powerhead, heater or UV lamp fails and the hot line of the power supply gets in contact with the water:
a) No GFCI and No Ground Probe.
As the tank is isolated from ground via plastic piping and wood stands the water becomes energized to 110 V but the main breaker does not trip as there is no current to ground. Fish has no problem because they are in a situation similar to a bird standing on a power line. This is a VERY DANGEROUS situation for the aquarist because as soon as you touch the water you get electrocuted as you become the path of current to ground. Breaker does not trip as there is not enough time for it to act or enough current to create enough heat. (They are slow trippers)
b) GFCI installed but no Ground Probe: Again nothing happen initially but the tank gets energized to 110 volts. as soon as you touch the water the GFCI will trip within 5 milliseconds and below a current of less than 5 milliamps. You may feel a small shock but nothing enough to hurt. This is the safest situation for the tank critters but may still hurt the aquarist mainly if the GFCI is malfunctioning.
c) GROUND PROBE INSTALLED BUT NO GFCI (Our case of discussion in this thread): As soon as the device fails and a short circuit is established then current is established to the ground probe, current may or may not be high enough to trip the breaker. Fish and critters will die and corals will RTN. If the breaker does not trip (Which is most of the cases) the short circuit may not be noticeable and you will be at a loss of why your critters are dying, even if you touch the water you may not notice unless the ground probe is not making a good ground. (See also Scenario 3c below) This is also a dangerous situation for potential fire. The current could be high but not high enough to trip the breaker, wires heat up, insulation melts and they catch fire.
d) Ground Probe Installed and GFCI installed: As soon as the short circuit is established the GFCI will trip shutting down whatever equipment is connected giving you a physical indication there is a short and something bad for you to fix immediately. This is the safest situation for the aquarist but has the downside that if you are away from the tank for a long time the lack of operating vital equipment may put your critters at risk.
So under this scenario the safest for the aquarist is to use both a GFCI and a ground probe. The next safest is to use GFCI alone.
Scenario 2: Short circuit between hot line and neutral on submerged equipment:[B/]
a) No GFCI and No Ground Probe: device and line will over heat. if current is high enough breaker will trip but it may take some time 10 seconds up to 5 minutes depending on the quality of the short. Plastic parts or rubber seals on the device may melt creating a secondary short reviewed under scenario 1 and releasing toxic chemicals into the water also copper wire may get exposed also releasing copper sulphate and other copper compounds to the water. Large mortality of critter is most probable.
b) GFCI installed but no ground probe: GFCI will not activate even if a secondary short to water is created as the water is not grounded and there will be no leakage current to create a current un-balance between hot and neutral so GFCI will not be able to detect the situation. Here as in 2a above (as well as 2c below) you are dependant on the breaker.
c) Ground probe installed but no GFCI: Same situation as in 2a above but if a secondary short is created current will be established killing the tank inhabitants but just probably faster than the toxic chemicals or copper compounds. Here you are dependant on the breaker.
d) GFCI and ground Probe installed: If a secondary short is created this will be same as 1d above, GFCI will trip reliving both the short circuit and disconnecting the power to the device probably preventing or reducing the damage by chemicals or copper. If no secondary short develops again you depend on the breaker.
Here again the safest alternative will be GFCI and ground probe installed although will not be effective if a secondary short to water is not established. Note that as mentioned above a short from hot to neutral may create a fire as the wires may get hot enough to initiate it.
There is a new device in the market that will replace the breaker and designed for this kind of fault. It is called an AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter) This device will fulfill the functions of a breaker but while a breaker rely on the heat of the wires created by the short circuit which makes it slow an AFCI detects the arc on the short circuit acting immediately. For full protection under scenario 2 an AFCI in the main panel plus a GFCI in the outlet and a ground probe in the tank will provide for full protection.
Scenario 3: Short circuit from hot to a metal part of a non-submerged device and there is no current to trip the device as the metal body is not grounded:[B/] This is typical of a lighting fixture to whome one of the light bulb wires toches the reflector or the metalic hood or when some of the wiring of external pumps short to the pumps body and the body of the pump is not grounded.
a) No ground Probe and no GFCI installed: As the fault is external to the aquarium the aquarium does not get energized and no effect. If you touch the device depending on how well insulated from ground you are (rubber soles vs bare foot, globes vs bare hands etc) you may just get jolted or may get electrocuted.
b) GFCI installed but no ground probe: If you are touching the water and touch the device the GFCI will trip even if the short is within the external device. Typical of this fault is when a termial on a lamp in the hood gets shorted to the hood itself via salt creep. you are working in the water while you touch the hood with your arm or shoulder.
c) Ground probe and no GFCI: This is one of the the main reasons why probes shall not be installed unless a GFCI is also installed. The water will be perfectly grounded. If you are working in the water and touch the device you will get badly shocked or electrocuted even is you yourself are electrically insulated by the use of rubber soles or such.
d) Ground Probe and GFCI: GFCI will trip as soon as you touch the body of the device saving you once more.
For this scenario the safest will be 3b and 3d above. To make this a really safe situation: i) Use only devices installed with three prong plugs they usually ground the body using the third prong.
ii) Replace the plug and wire of any device to a three pong plug and connect the green wire to the body of the device. (The metal hood, the body of the ballast, the casing of the pump etc.)
Note that many power heads only use 2 prong plugs, if possible select one with three prongs. (Maxi jets used to have three prong wires and plugs but they were replaced with a lighter insulation wire and two prong plugs. It is still unclear to me why. Cost?, Did not want to potentially ground the water? Only they know)
Gp's and GFCI have two different functions. I personally don't use many gp's, but I would never tell someone not to use one. Just always keep return pumps on a separate circuit from everything else... That is the best advice I have.
This is the best explanation of what can happen....
Originally Posted by jdieck
The grounding probe can be plugged to any grounded (three prung receptacle but the circuit(s) feeding the power to the aquarium equipment need to have GFCI installed to protect the aquarist.
A GFCI does not make the ground probe either necessary or un-necessary but a ground probe makes a GFCI necessary.
Here is the long and detailed answer so please stay with me.
There are several possible cases or scenarios of short circuit in an aquarium system.
Scenario 1. Hot line to water via submerged equipment. This is when a submerged piece of equipment like a powerhead, heater or UV lamp fails and the hot line of the power supply gets in contact with the water:
a) No GFCI and No Ground Probe.
As the tank is isolated from ground via plastic piping and wood stands the water becomes energized to 110 V but the main breaker does not trip as there is no current to ground. Fish has no problem because they are in a situation similar to a bird standing on a power line. This is a VERY DANGEROUS situation for the aquarist because as soon as you touch the water you get electrocuted as you become the path of current to ground. Breaker does not trip as there is not enough time for it to act or enough current to create enough heat. (They are slow trippers)
b) GFCI installed but no Ground Probe: Again nothing happen initially but the tank gets energized to 110 volts. as soon as you touch the water the GFCI will trip within 5 milliseconds and below a current of less than 5 milliamps. You may feel a small shock but nothing enough to hurt. This is the safest situation for the tank critters but may still hurt the aquarist mainly if the GFCI is malfunctioning.
c) GROUND PROBE INSTALLED BUT NO GFCI (Our case of discussion in this thread): As soon as the device fails and a short circuit is established then current is established to the ground probe, current may or may not be high enough to trip the breaker. Fish and critters will die and corals will RTN. If the breaker does not trip (Which is most of the cases) the short circuit may not be noticeable and you will be at a loss of why your critters are dying, even if you touch the water you may not notice unless the ground probe is not making a good ground. (See also Scenario 3c below) This is also a dangerous situation for potential fire. The current could be high but not high enough to trip the breaker, wires heat up, insulation melts and they catch fire.
d) Ground Probe Installed and GFCI installed: As soon as the short circuit is established the GFCI will trip shutting down whatever equipment is connected giving you a physical indication there is a short and something bad for you to fix immediately. This is the safest situation for the aquarist but has the downside that if you are away from the tank for a long time the lack of operating vital equipment may put your critters at risk.
So under this scenario the safest for the aquarist is to use both a GFCI and a ground probe. The next safest is to use GFCI alone.
Scenario 2: Short circuit between hot line and neutral on submerged equipment:[B/]
a) No GFCI and No Ground Probe: device and line will over heat. if current is high enough breaker will trip but it may take some time 10 seconds up to 5 minutes depending on the quality of the short. Plastic parts or rubber seals on the device may melt creating a secondary short reviewed under scenario 1 and releasing toxic chemicals into the water also copper wire may get exposed also releasing copper sulphate and other copper compounds to the water. Large mortality of critter is most probable.
b) GFCI installed but no ground probe: GFCI will not activate even if a secondary short to water is created as the water is not grounded and there will be no leakage current to create a current un-balance between hot and neutral so GFCI will not be able to detect the situation. Here as in 2a above (as well as 2c below) you are dependant on the breaker.
c) Ground probe installed but no GFCI: Same situation as in 2a above but if a secondary short is created current will be established killing the tank inhabitants but just probably faster than the toxic chemicals or copper compounds. Here you are dependant on the breaker.
d) GFCI and ground Probe installed: If a secondary short is created this will be same as 1d above, GFCI will trip reliving both the short circuit and disconnecting the power to the device probably preventing or reducing the damage by chemicals or copper. If no secondary short develops again you depend on the breaker.
Here again the safest alternative will be GFCI and ground probe installed although will not be effective if a secondary short to water is not established. Note that as mentioned above a short from hot to neutral may create a fire as the wires may get hot enough to initiate it.
There is a new device in the market that will replace the breaker and designed for this kind of fault. It is called an AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter) This device will fulfill the functions of a breaker but while a breaker rely on the heat of the wires created by the short circuit which makes it slow an AFCI detects the arc on the short circuit acting immediately. For full protection under scenario 2 an AFCI in the main panel plus a GFCI in the outlet and a ground probe in the tank will provide for full protection.
Scenario 3: Short circuit from hot to a metal part of a non-submerged device and there is no current to trip the device as the metal body is not grounded:[B/] This is typical of a lighting fixture to whome one of the light bulb wires toches the reflector or the metalic hood or when some of the wiring of external pumps short to the pumps body and the body of the pump is not grounded.
a) No ground Probe and no GFCI installed: As the fault is external to the aquarium the aquarium does not get energized and no effect. If you touch the device depending on how well insulated from ground you are (rubber soles vs bare foot, globes vs bare hands etc) you may just get jolted or may get electrocuted.
b) GFCI installed but no ground probe: If you are touching the water and touch the device the GFCI will trip even if the short is within the external device. Typical of this fault is when a termial on a lamp in the hood gets shorted to the hood itself via salt creep. you are working in the water while you touch the hood with your arm or shoulder.
c) Ground probe and no GFCI: This is one of the the main reasons why probes shall not be installed unless a GFCI is also installed. The water will be perfectly grounded. If you are working in the water and touch the device you will get badly shocked or electrocuted even is you yourself are electrically insulated by the use of rubber soles or such.
d) Ground Probe and GFCI: GFCI will trip as soon as you touch the body of the device saving you once more.
For this scenario the safest will be 3b and 3d above. To make this a really safe situation: i) Use only devices installed with three prong plugs they usually ground the body using the third prong.
ii) Replace the plug and wire of any device to a three pong plug and connect the green wire to the body of the device. (The metal hood, the body of the ballast, the casing of the pump etc.)
Note that many power heads only use 2 prong plugs, if possible select one with three prongs. (Maxi jets used to have three prong wires and plugs but they were replaced with a lighter insulation wire and two prong plugs. It is still unclear to me why. Cost?, Did not want to potentially ground the water? Only they know)
Scenario 4: Short from hot to neutral or grounded body of an external device:[B/]
Under this scenario for all cases you will be dependant on the breaker. If the current is high but the breaker is slow on acting there might be a fire. The use of an Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter instead of a breaker will reduce the fire possibility.
Scenario 5: Short from Neutral to water:[B/] As usually the neutral wire is grounded either at the outside were the wires enter the house or at the main nothing happens unless this neutral grounding is not perfect some small voltage may develop creating the following situation:
a) No GFCI and No Probe: nothing will happen, you may detect small voltage of the water to ground, if you touch the water you may feel a small shock if you are not insulated enough.
b) GFCI but no ground probe: if you touch the water and the voltage is high enough to generate at least 5 milliamps the GFCI will trip.
c) Ground probe but no GFCI: The small voltage may create a permanent small current, this may be enough to start killing the most sensitive critters, (Pods and Snails) and create coral RTN over long term.
d) GFCI and Ground Probe: same as 5b above. If the current is below 5 milliamps it may still create a small current which may affect the tank inhabitants but in a lesser degree given the smaller current level than 5c above.
So in summary overall the safest for the aquarist will be the installation of AFCI, GFCI and Ground Probe. The safest for the inhabitants will be AFCI and GFCI without ground probe. This is the reason why many aquarist do not use ground probes (but will always use GFCIs) specially traveling ones that stay away for extended periods of time. If you have a remote alarm system installed that may page you or send you an E-Mail in case of a fault (Like the aqua controller from Neptune Systems) you shall have no doubts and have your Probe installed with your GFCI's)
Opposite the most dangerous situation is not having at least a GFCI. By the way many states, city or county electrical codes require installation of GFCIs on any location where electrical equipment may be exposed to water like outdoors, kitchens, bathrooms, aquariums, spas etc. If this is the case and there is an accident or fire the insurance company MAY NOT PAY. so be warned.
I hope this long explanation may save some of us out there from at least a couple of jolts. By the way it is not smart (Trying to be nice an not saying plainly stupid) to use one-self as a test subject. I had a friend who got a small shock while testing a hood, he kept on shcocking himself trying to find out where the short was! Get a multi tester is you need to do this.
Enjoy and happy reefing!
Under this scenario for all cases you will be dependant on the breaker. If the current is high but the breaker is slow on acting there might be a fire. The use of an Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter instead of a breaker will reduce the fire possibility.
Scenario 5: Short from Neutral to water:[B/] As usually the neutral wire is grounded either at the outside were the wires enter the house or at the main nothing happens unless this neutral grounding is not perfect some small voltage may develop creating the following situation:
a) No GFCI and No Probe: nothing will happen, you may detect small voltage of the water to ground, if you touch the water you may feel a small shock if you are not insulated enough.
b) GFCI but no ground probe: if you touch the water and the voltage is high enough to generate at least 5 milliamps the GFCI will trip.
c) Ground probe but no GFCI: The small voltage may create a permanent small current, this may be enough to start killing the most sensitive critters, (Pods and Snails) and create coral RTN over long term.
d) GFCI and Ground Probe: same as 5b above. If the current is below 5 milliamps it may still create a small current which may affect the tank inhabitants but in a lesser degree given the smaller current level than 5c above.
So in summary overall the safest for the aquarist will be the installation of AFCI, GFCI and Ground Probe. The safest for the inhabitants will be AFCI and GFCI without ground probe. This is the reason why many aquarist do not use ground probes (but will always use GFCIs) specially traveling ones that stay away for extended periods of time. If you have a remote alarm system installed that may page you or send you an E-Mail in case of a fault (Like the aqua controller from Neptune Systems) you shall have no doubts and have your Probe installed with your GFCI's)
Opposite the most dangerous situation is not having at least a GFCI. By the way many states, city or county electrical codes require installation of GFCIs on any location where electrical equipment may be exposed to water like outdoors, kitchens, bathrooms, aquariums, spas etc. If this is the case and there is an accident or fire the insurance company MAY NOT PAY. so be warned.
I hope this long explanation may save some of us out there from at least a couple of jolts. By the way it is not smart (Trying to be nice an not saying plainly stupid) to use one-self as a test subject. I had a friend who got a small shock while testing a hood, he kept on shcocking himself trying to find out where the short was! Get a multi tester is you need to do this.
Enjoy and happy reefing!
^Thank you for the time it took you write this reply, very informative. Anybody want a brand new ground probe?
I can't take credit for the write up. It was posted up in 2005 on rc. The link is in the post. Good luck!
Oops, didn't notice the quote. Thanks for posting anyway.