Upgrading 75 Gallon to 200 Gallon... good idea or bad?

[hjp109]

Thank you d5332... appreciate your feedback. Definitely makes me want to sleep on it once again. This was the purpose of my post to have the experts guide me through the decision making process and I greatly appreciate everyone's feedback... positive/negative and humorous ones. I know we tend to get excited when we see the larger tank, but don't realize how much work would need to go into it.

 

[hjp109]

Okay... So I slept on it for a few nites.. and now I want to work out the pricing on the equipment. What does everyone think I should use for the Sump/Refugium, Pump, and Skimmer? Is chiller necessary if I have central A/C and we maintain the room temperature around 75/78 F?
I have been looking at the ADHI 45 or 60 Refugiums... good choice or should I go with something cheaper? How big of a pump should I get? I'm thinking a 1200 - 1400 gph pump should suffice for a under the tank setup... any input?

 

[d5332]

When all said and done $2k to $3k in equipment



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[hjp109]

Please tell me this includes the cost of the tank. As the Bank of Wife has approved my loan for $3K.

When all said and done $2k to $3k in equipment



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[JRWOHLER]

What kind of lights are you getting? I went from T5 to the Apollo LED http://apolloreefled.com/ during our group buy and I noticed a huge difference in tank temp. I never went above 80 this summer. Yes had the AC on a little cooler then you but made a big difference.
Also if you do go to the basement you can run fans across the top plus the basement should be cooler. Wouldn't look to buy a chiller yet in other words unless you go MH.

Are you still going the same size tank?
Inside water movement is sort of cheeper and uses less energy then pumping water.

 

[mnat]

Tank and stand: Look at AO and Trop for prices. I think AO is running a sale right now on tanks, do not know if the 200 is in there, but a good place to start.
Lights: This is the most important and possibly the most expensive piece of your project. First what corals do you want? If you want an all SPS tank, then get the stonger lights. If you want softies or a FOWLR, then get a cheaper light. Basically at this point most people are split between LEDs and T5s. The T5s are going to be a cheaper up front cost, but you have to replace the bulbs every year which will add up and they will run your electricity bill up more. LEDs will be more expensive for the up front cost (you could blow all 3k on lights very easily) but no bulb replacement costs and lower electricity so over time they will probably be cheaper.
Sump/Refugium: Sounds like you are going in stand which is fine. Instead of getting a seperate sump and fuge, have one made with both. Steve at Ultra Corals is doing acrylic work so you can get a sump with a fuge built in which will cut down on your costs and complications in the system. Get a price quote and shop around. You can use a glass tank and cut some baffles, but that depends on how handy you are and if you want a glass sump. Also, you want to make sure there is room in your stand for an ATO container and if you want to have an extrenal return pump
Skimmer: Get a good skimmer. Even if you find a used one, get a good one. Figure out what the height of the stand is and how much room you have because that is important. It will also factor in to your sump build because you need to fit the skimmer. I love my reef octopus and there are many other good skimmers our there. Look at what they gallons they are rated for and how much air they pull (usually liters per hour)
Return pump: Internal or external? That is a personal choice but will also factor into how your sump is built. Internals can add heat, but they are getting much more efficient. You want to pay attention to the watts as these can be energy hogs because they are running 24/7. Mags are great pumps, but they generate a lot of heat and run a ton of watts. DC pumps (which basically means you can control the strength of the pump) are becoming very popular and are very efficient.
Reactors: Carbon and phosban reactors, are you going to use them?
ATO: A must
Powerheads: Again comes down to your stocking choices but you are going to need some beasts on there. I love my vortechs but they are pricey. Most people seem to love the Jaebo WP40s which you would probably need at least 2 for that size tank (if not 4, I don't know that much about them).
Alk/Calc Control: Depending on what corals you are going to keep, are you going to use a calcium reactor, dosing pumps, or manual dosing to keep your alk and calc numbers stable? That will factor in to room under your stand depending on which one you decide on.
Controller: Completely up to you but can add cost.

It took me roughly 6 months to a year to put together all the equipment for my build. I used a combination of group buys, used stuff, brand new stuff, calling on some contacts, and hunting the boards for some other stuff.

 

[hjp109]

Wow... you guys are good at this stuff. I'm definitely looking to do LEDs.. I thinking of starting out with some soft corals and eventually building up to the SPS. Currently, in my 75 I have LEDs (chinese made), but they are great (see the pics attached). They are two dimmable units with 50/50 blue and white. Each unit has 24 lights and each light is a CREE 3 Watts. My current soft corals and RBTA's love them.. so I'm assuming they are good for soft corals; however, since i have two over a tank that is 48x18 and now I'm going to a tank that is 48x36.. I think I might need 4 more of the same lights or upgrade to the AIs or Apollos. And I'm sure the lights is what is going to put my budget of the charts. So maybe in the interim I'll do a T5 and LED hybrid system... until I can get another loan approved. hahaha As far as reactors... not sure if I'll be adding them initially... I do dose manually and will continue with that until I get that second loan approved.
So far the tank is costing me $2000 plus tax. So that leaves me with less than $1000 for Skimmer, Sump/Refugium, and Pump. I'll follow up with Steve from UC.
How many GPH Return PUMP would I need for a 200 gallon? Would 1200 - 1400 gph pump suffice.. this way the water can cycle 6-7 times in an hour.

 

[JRWOHLER]

Return pump is only one way that you can achieve circulation.
Vortechs, Koralia, Jebo, Sicci are all probably more efficent then a return pump. I tend to think that when you hit a certain size the return pump is more of a secondary circulation instrument then the internal pumps. Your return pump really determines what goes through the sump/skimmer area/refugium then pure circulation. But you do have the surface skimming aspect. All said 1200-1400 would be sufficient for an under the tank sump. This is a pretty good choice for an external pump. http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=18054&cat=1209&page=1

 

[TanksNStuff]

A lot of good advice already given, so not much more I can add.

I know the budget is the deciding factor, but I know that if I had a basement... there's nothing that would stop me from setting up the sump down there. There are just too many benefits to not find a way IMO. Not only will it make maintenance much easier (just think of eliminating carrying water for water changes alone!) but it will also keep noise/smells out of the room where the tank is displayed and will keep the tank cooler due to the uncovered setup and possibly a larger sump volume. Plus, you probably won't have any issues finding room to add any reactors, ato, dosing equipment, etc. Just my opinion and with a tight budget it might be hard to add the extra plumbing and stuff. But you won't regret it if you choose this method.

Sump - This is one area where you can save some money. A 40 breeder would be a good size for that tank and you can pick one up cheap when Petco has their $1 per gallon sale. After buying the silicone and glass or acrylic to make the baffles, your talking $60-$70 complete. This would be a sump/fuge combo and knock two things off your list.

Skimmer - I would look for a bargain on a good used one. You could save a few hundred by going with used over new. I would shoot for a cone skimmer as they seem to be the best working designs IMO.

Last bit of advice, you are in no rush to make the switch. Take all the time you need to prepare for it:
- Buy equipment as you find good deals.
- Get extra LR (or clean/dead rock) early and prepare it so it's ready when you setup the new tank. That means either cure it all or add it slowly to your old system so that the beneficial bacteria begin to populate it. Don't add it all at once to the old system as that may cause a cycle and possibly crash your tank.
- When it comes time to make the switch, make sure you have plenty of RO and new saltwater water on hand. Keep in mind that when you temporarily house your fish/corals to break down the old tank... they will be stressed and thereby dirty up the water they are kept in. I would suggest you discard all or most of that water instead of using it again in the new tank. I would try to save maybe 50% of the old tank water and keep it in a separate container with no livestock... then use that to start filling the new tank. Use all new SW to fill up the rest of the way. Also, don't forget you have to fill the sump/fuge too. I'd say make sure you have at least 200-250 gallons of RO water made up and at least 100 of that be mixing up salt water the night before. Then mix up more SW as you need after adding your sand and LR.

Hope that helps. Would love to see how this progresses.

 

[hjp109]

Thanks TanksNStuff... excellent advice on not using my old water where the fish were temporarily stored. As I was going to use that water... I am so happy I became a NJRC member. okay mooshy moment is over.
So will my live stock suffer or experience stress if I mix them in with 50% of my old water, approx 35 gal with the the new saltwater mix, approx 200 gal?

 

[Mike S]

Like others have said you can really find some good deals if you are patient and don't mind buying used. So many people come and go from this hobby. Tropiquarium is probably going to be tough to beat on new tank prices. Are you looking for a 200DD? Here is one for sale that includes a stand and sump.

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151158

One thing to keep in mind with Marineland DD stands is that they are relatively short. Watch your skimmer height unless you want to build a stand yourself or go with a remote sump which I highly recommend.

 

[hjp109]

I got a quote today from Trop today, unfortunately, it was pretty high. I am open to used equipment; however, it's hard to find used equipment to support a 200 gal tank. however I'll keep looking for used equipment.

 

[d5332]

You need to check the link avoove and grab that 200dd while its still available.

A new 200dd with stand an d canopy will always run you over $2k.

I am telling you, new will run you $3k easy

I am setting up a 200dd now and I am stuck on lights, to pro properly light I need to spend over $1k

If you want a dd tank jump on the one that is on MR

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[d5332]

A good skimmer for a 200g tank, used will run you $500, new forget about it

Sump, idk avout 40g breeder, that is cuttinf it close, on a 200g aim for 50g sump

Two reputable vendors on mr are selling rock at $2.50lb

Pump on a 200g should be 1200gph on each return, otherwise you are going to spend even more money on other circulation pumps.

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[d5332]

When I finish my tank transfer I may have stuff that may help you that I can let go cheap but its not main stuff

2mag 12 pumps, marineland 3 sump but its minor stuff

Ppl that setup large tanks properly and that look nice usually spend $3k to $5k not including cost of fish and corals

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[NikkiT]

Used equipment for large tanks isn't easy to find, but it isn't impossible either. Check out the NJRC selling forum on Reef Central, the Manhattan Reefs selling forum on Reef Central, and maybe DVRC.

Take your time and go slow.

We bought our tank in May, but it didn't get fully set up until the end of October.

 

[Mike S]

I see that you already have a pair of led fixtures on your current tank. You could add 4 T5s to them and get a decent spread across the tank. For not much more money (about 175 each) you could grab a pair of reefbreeder value fixtures and run them with your existing lights and have enough light for sps throughout your tank. That would get you started.

A decent used skimmer is probably going to be in the $300 to $400 range. The SRO 3000INT runs about $500 new. I've been browsing for something larger and have seen used 3000s pop up a few times on the places that Nikki mentioned. I think some people here are running bubble magmus skimmers and are pretty happy with them. They might be worth a look. I think Downbeach may be running one on his 180.

I have a pair of jaebo wp40s in my tank and two would give you plenty of flow especially if you aren't starting with sps. Lots of people are using them but they are still very new so only time will tell how they hold up.

 

[d5332]

Must add, the Monterey stand is not very high. Skimmer choices are very limited hence why most DD owners end up with external skimmers.

To get started yes, one can find a skimmer for $300 - $400 but it should be noted that will most likely lead to a quick sale soon after because the skimmer is not powerful enough for a large tank. Better to do it right the first time.

I see that you already have a pair of led fixtures on your current tank. You could add 4 T5s to them and get a decent spread across the tank. For not much more money (about 175 each) you could grab a pair of reefbreeder value fixtures and run them with your existing lights and have enough light for sps throughout your tank. That would get you started.

A decent used skimmer is probably going to be in the $300 to $400 range. The SRO 3000INT runs about $500 new. I've been browsing for something larger and have seen used 3000s pop up a few times on the places that Nikki mentioned. I think some people here are running bubble magmus skimmers and are pretty happy with them. They might be worth a look. I think Downbeach may be running one on his 180.

I have a pair of jaebo wp40s in my tank and two would give you plenty of flow especially if you aren't starting with sps. Lots of people are using them but they are still very new so only time will tell how they hold up.

 

[TanksNStuff]

I see that you already have a pair of led fixtures on your current tank. You could add 4 T5s to them and get a decent spread across the tank. For not much more money (about 175 each) you could grab a pair of reefbreeder value fixtures and run them with your existing lights and have enough light for sps throughout your tank. That would get you started.

A decent used skimmer is probably going to be in the $300 to $400 range. The SRO 3000INT runs about $500 new. I've been browsing for something larger and have seen used 3000s pop up a few times on the places that Nikki mentioned. I think some people here are running bubble magmus skimmers and are pretty happy with them. They might be worth a look. I think Downbeach may be running one on his 180.

I have a pair of jaebo wp40s in my tank and two would give you plenty of flow especially if you aren't starting with sps. Lots of people are using them but they are still very new so only time will tell how they hold up.

Yes, downbeach does have the BM CS Hero 180 for his tank. I know because he and I bought that model at the same time (I'm upgrading to a 120g) from:
http://www.petmountain.com/product/...45/bubble-magus-hero-180-protein-skimmer.html
We actually got them for $265 each at the introductory price but now they're up to $299 (and even higher on other sites). The bad news is that they're out of stock right now. That's a really good skimmer and price-wise for that class it's hard to beat, even new.

I agree with d5332 on that last point about making sure you buy the right one the first time. The biggest money pit in this hobby is when you have to buy something bigger/better and end up losing money on the resale of the original item. It's like buying a new car... the second you drive it off the lot, the value decreases because it's "used". That's why I went with the Hero 180. It's rated for a bigger tank than my 120 so if I even upgrade again down the road, I won't have to buy another one. Always shoot for one size bigger.

 

[d5332]

HJP, in summary setting up a DD tank with everything new and properly sized is going to cost you over $3k period.

If you truly want a large tank you must decide:

DD? then jump on any DD deal you see
even a 210g tank new with stand and canopy is going to cost you $2k, heck some 180's cost that as well

First secure the tank, keep in the garage and let it sit.
If you do plan to keep SPS then lights will cost you over $1k there is no way around that.

Get the tank, stand and canopy, let it collect dust in the garage and plan on deal hunting for 3 to 12 months.

You will need to deal hunt by joining as many boards as possible and craigslist for:
Sump
Lights
Skimmer
UV
Pumps
maybe Rock
maybe Sand

I lack patience but maybe you dont, I usually deal hunt for a week or two and if I do truly need it I just buy it new from a store.

Good luck