Battling Nitrates & Phosphates

[Hallowhead]

Howdy,

I am struggling with my frag tank... my display tank (separate system) which is more mixed reef (fish & coral) balances itself better. So here goes. My frag tank is a 34 deep blue with a 15ish gallon sump. I run (2) kessil A160we tuna blue's. The tank started minimal cycled & than just snails for several months before my first QT fish made it through my rigorous plan. Upon adding the fish the uglyness hit & some algae broke out now that there was more nutrients in the water. This went away shortly after, clean white rocks still no green algae growth - I added corals. Corals looked GREAT always fully extended and polyp heads are wide open unlike my DT (another topic for another day). Boom it happened, a frag must have had turf algae on it and made through my hydrogen peroxide dips and scrubs it spread fast! This algae was combated by vibrant and manual removal. The vibrant brought red slime, and these two algaes ate my nitrates & phosphates and pegged them zero.. Through this my corals remained fully extended when the plugs were not covered in turf algae... however, NO GROWTH nothing is splitting (all zoa's). Over time I added a larger CUC; several turbos, throchus & assorted others. They helped clean frag plugs a LOT however, still turf algae bad... After 4 weeks of vibrant and no luck I manually removed every inch of turf algae and scrubbed down each rock in RO/DI water. 2 weeks later my tank looked incredibly clean and all seemed well.... Nitrates still registered zero & phosphates zero - now this week green algae appears to be growing back on the egg shells & red slime growing in it's long strings. I am not sure what's up, however, I think it has to do with nitrates being zero.. how can I combat this? A refugium? GFO? I fear that if I start feeding more, the algae will just grow more? Should I add more fish? I had 2 fish but my tailspot blenny jumped out of the tank Some zoanthid frags have been in here 6 months & have not multiplied ONCE however, there always fully extended.

I raised my light intensity back up to 45 percent to hopefully help zoanthid propagation yesterday... not sure if this will help - but I am at a loss of words why my zoanthids won't grow, they're just frozen in time.

Tank parameters:

Ammonia 0
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0
pH 8.2
Phosphate .09 ppm rn... which confuses me.
Alk 8.5 dkh
Calcium 430

 

[MadReefer]

I feel your pain; just ordered NoPox to see if that helps.

 

[Hallowhead]

I truly don't know if I have zero nitrates & need to dose nitrates or if the algae is eating the nitrates in the tank... I think another fish or two will help but I don't want to overpopulate my frag tank... on the other hand though I have an oversized skimmer... so maybe it's time to throw some fish in?

 

[MadReefer]

From what I was told and read. If you have algae the numbers are not zero.

 

[Hallowhead]

From what I was told and read. If you have algae the numbers are not zero.

Right the algae is just eating the nitrates.

 

[Sponge]

about to ask a bunch of questions. Sorry but please try and answer everyone. Can’t say we can definitively figure this out but the devil is in the details. Feel free to add any info not on list that pops into your head. In the meantime slow down. I don’t know the timeline. But reading above you have tried more methods. Used more chems. And made more changes than I can wrap my head around. In only 6 months. This alone is not good and may not have anything to do with your algae problem. But I guarantee it’s why you have no growth. Corals grow when things are stable. Every single change you make. Good or bad. Is a stability change. Additionally, never make two changes at the same time. Or it is impossible to know what’s helping and hurting. Simple example. Never change light intensity AND photo period in the same two week period. How would you possibly know which was the problem Or if they preferred one or the other.

1. What is your magnesium
2. How many hours are your lights on.
3. are there any fish? If so what?
4. Do you have a rough idea of your water turn over rate. I am only referring to return pump.
5. What is your ruff turn over rate. Just power heads.
6. What is your feed schedule for the tank. Be as specific as you can. What do you feed. How much. How often.
7. Salt brand
8. Water change frequency and volume
9. Water temperature and do you check this often. Meaning is there any temp swings
10. Water salinity and it’s stability stability
11. You state your PH. But what’s its stability.

And finally. You need to be honest. Every tank. EVERY ONE has swings. When people answer these questions. I always hear zero swing. This is always not true ALWAYS. Swings are impossible to avoid it’s the nature of what we do and everything is effected by everything else. Our goal is to manage these swings. Because bigger swings equal INSTABILITY and this equals zero growth. You will see more growth in a tank that has a parameter out of wack if that parameter changes very little. Over a tank that’s parameter is closer to acceptable “normal” but tends to swing up and down to keep it there.
Best of luck. Take your time. Answer as many questions as you can. And let’s figure this out.

 

[amado]

So a stand alone frag tank is very difficult to maintain. You don’t have sand and you don’t have rocks so it make it very difficult place for the good bacteria to grow.

most small skimmers for that frag tank don’t work good.

it’s always best to add your frag tank to the main tank and use the same water volume.

your tank is very young. I think yourmain tank build thread isn’t even a year old.
tanks take a long time to get out of that ugly stage.

you need to have urchins/tangs in your tank to help eat some of the algae.

If you want a tank with no algae you need to get your corals from 1 trusted source.

find a LFS that you trust and know that they dip and clean and treat their frags and buy only from them. Don’t buy online don’t buy from other reefers.

Stop introducing corals or fish until you get your parameters right.

rent out a par meter from your local lfs or BRS and see if your lights are a problem.
Add some ceramic media or rocks to the frag tank.

Get a icp test for both tanks and see what’s going on.

get a properly sized UV it will help.

setting up a refugium with help with removing nitrates and it can be a great place to grow pods and add rocks. The refugium will also add water volume.

if you don’t have room for a refugium, then get a algae scrubber. You need some form of nutrient export.

why are you running your lights at 45%i have the same tank and I run two 360we at 100% your corals need light to out compete the algae.

and last you shouldnt have a tail spot bleenie
In a frag tank. You don’t have rocks or sand so it would be very sad.
corals need 3 things stability/ food (fish poop) if you have one fish it’s not enough.
lights I don’t Think you have enough lights for the frag tank.

 

[Hallowhead]

about to ask a bunch of questions. Sorry but please try and answer everyone. Can’t say we can definitively figure this out but the devil is in the details. Feel free to add any info not on list that pops into your head. In the meantime slow down. I don’t know the timeline. But reading above you have tried more methods. Used more chems. And made more changes than I can wrap my head around. In only 6 months. This alone is not good and may not have anything to do with your algae problem. But I guarantee it’s why you have no growth. Corals grow when things are stable. Every single change you make. Good or bad. Is a stability change. Additionally, never make two changes at the same time. Or it is impossible to know what’s helping and hurting. Simple example. Never change light intensity AND photo period in the same two week period. How would you possibly know which was the problem Or if they preferred one or the other.

1. What is your magnesium
2. How many hours are your lights on.
3. are there any fish? If so what?
4. Do you have a rough idea of your water turn over rate. I am only referring to return pump.
5. What is your ruff turn over rate. Just power heads.
6. What is your feed schedule for the tank. Be as specific as you can. What do you feed. How much. How often.
7. Salt brand
8. Water change frequency and volume
9. Water temperature and do you check this often. Meaning is there any temp swings
10. Water salinity and it’s stability stability
11. You state your PH. But what’s its stability.

And finally. You need to be honest. Every tank. EVERY ONE has swings. When people answer these questions. I always hear zero swing. This is always not true ALWAYS. Swings are impossible to avoid it’s the nature of what we do and everything is effected by everything else. Our goal is to manage these swings. Because bigger swings equal INSTABILITY and this equals zero growth. You will see more growth in a tank that has a parameter out of wack if that parameter changes very little. Over a tank that’s parameter is closer to acceptable “normal” but tends to swing up and down to keep it there.
Best of luck. Take your time. Answer as many questions as you can. And let’s figure this out.

1. What is your magnesium
- I need to get a mg tester
2. How many hours are your lights on.
- lights are on at 9:30am and ramp up to 45% intensity and stay for several hours and ramp down to off at 9:30pm. I didn't increase or decrease photo period. Just began to Increase intensity
3. are there any fish? If so what?
- one fish as of now; six line wrasse. Had a tailspot blenny but he jumped out last week.
4. Do you have a rough idea of your water turn over rate. I am only referring to return pump.
- I have a sicce 3.0 - don't know actual turn over rate
5. What is your ruff turn over rate. Just power heads.
- I have (2) jebao ow-10's on half power opposite ends. Don't know turnover rate. Can I calculate this ?
6. What is your feed schedule for the tank. Be as specific as you can. What do you feed. How much. How often.
- I was feeding every day melted mixed reef frozen food. I was melting half a cube between my main tank and frag tank and giving just a little splash or two to the frag tank. I've been feeding every other day now frozen food and feeding Spectra life pellets everyday.
7. Salt brand
Instant ocean reef salt (purple)
8. Water change frequency and volume
- weekly 5 gallons with extensive scrubbing of algae
9. Water temperature and do you check this often. Meaning is there any temp swings
- I have it at 78.6 I monitor with apex. High is 78.8 and low is 78.2.
10. Water salinity and it’s stability stability
- salinity is 1.025 and it's stable.
11. You state your PH. But what’s its stability.
- pH swings between 8 and 8.2

 

[Hallowhead]

So a stand alone frag tank is very difficult to maintain. You don’t have sand and you don’t have rocks so it make it very difficult place for the good bacteria to grow.

most small skimmers for that frag tank don’t work good.

it’s always best to add your frag tank to the main tank and use the same water volume.

your tank is very young. I think yourmain tank build thread isn’t even a year old.
tanks take a long time to get out of that ugly stage.

you need to have urchins/tangs in your tank to help eat some of the algae.

If you want a tank with no algae you need to get your corals from 1 trusted source.

find a LFS that you trust and know that they dip and clean and treat their frags and buy only from them. Don’t buy online don’t buy from other reefers.

Stop introducing corals or fish until you get your parameters right.

rent out a par meter from your local lfs or BRS and see if your lights are a problem.
Add some ceramic media or rocks to the frag tank.

Get a icp test for both tanks and see what’s going on.

get a properly sized UV it will help.

setting up a refugium with help with removing nitrates and it can be a great place to grow pods and add rocks. The refugium will also add water volume.

if you don’t have room for a refugium, then get a algae scrubber. You need some form of nutrient export.

why are you running your lights at 45%i have the same tank and I run two 360we at 100% your corals need light to out compete the algae.

and last you shouldnt have a tail spot bleenie
In a frag tank. You don’t have rocks or sand so it would be very sad.

I have rock and I have enough marine pure spheres to equal I think 150 gallon tank. I do not have sand as I figured it would be easier to manage. I know it's gonna be a struggle and yes the tank is six months old... My main tank is just breaching a year.

My skimmer is a ice cap k1-100 it's no small skimmer that's for sure.

I'm thinking of adding a yellow tang or a tailspot blenny to help assist.

I was hoping someone in the club could rent me a par meter.

The refugium is on my mind - however I need to figure out if I truly have zero nitrates or if the little algae left it's housing it.

I know I need to increase lights - but I'm nervous of increasing it right now for the algae that may grow

 

[amado]

I have rock and I have enough marine pure spheres to equal I think 150 gallon tank. I do not have sand as I figured it would be easier to manage. I know it's gonna be a struggle and yes the tank is six months old... My main tank is just breaching a year.

My skimmer is a ice cap k1-100 it's no small skimmer that's for sure.

I'm thinking of adding a yellow tang or a tailspot blenny to help assist.

I was hoping someone in the club could rent me a par meter.

The refugium is on my mind - however I need to figure out if I truly have zero nitrates or if the little algae left it's housing it.

I know I need to increase lights - but I'm nervous of increasing it right now for the algae that may grow

your tanks lights are 100% to low and not enough par. I have the same tank and I run my kessil 360we two at a 100% and Iget around 220 -250 in the middle so the corners
Are less than 90 par. Right now your corals are not getting enough lights. The algae doesn’t need a lot of light for it to grow. So you are providing a perfect environment for algae to thrive. If you get better lighting or stronger lights the corals will out compete the algae. run your lights at 100% and get a par meter.
Using a over sized skimmer is just as bad.
you need to run the right skimmer for the water volume. You should maybe reduce the time it’s running or run only at night.

if you have rocks or marine pure that is great.
but now you have to wait for the good bacteria to grow and that takes years not months.

 

[DangerDave]

I don’t think you’re in a bad situation here with an immature system. if you have algae growing, it shows you have nutrients, even if it’s testing to zero. I feel this is a positive. I would recommend tuning up your clean up crew. Algae is part of a natural system, so get some more critters chomping on it.

another thing you may consider is connecting the two systems do a larger overall water volume. The more water, the slower changes (swings) happen.

Good luck

Dave

 

[Sponge]

So a stand alone frag tank is very difficult to maintain. You don’t have sand and you don’t have rocks so it make it very difficult place for the good bacteria to grow.

most small skimmers for that frag tank don’t work good.

it’s always best to add your frag tank to the main tank and use the same water volume.

your tank is very young. I think yourmain tank build thread isn’t even a year old.
tanks take a long time to get out of that ugly stage.

you need to have urchins/tangs in your tank to help eat some of the algae.

If you want a tank with no algae you need to get your corals from 1 trusted source.

find a LFS that you trust and know that they dip and clean and treat their frags and buy only from them. Don’t buy online don’t buy from other reefers.

Stop introducing corals or fish until you get your parameters right.

rent out a par meter from your local lfs or BRS and see if your lights are a problem.
Add some ceramic media or rocks to the frag tank.

Get a icp test for both tanks and see what’s going on.

get a properly sized UV it will help.

setting up a refugium with help with removing nitrates and it can be a great place to grow pods and add rocks. The refugium will also add water volume.

if you don’t have room for a refugium, then get a algae scrubber. You need some form of nutrient export.

why are you running your lights at 45%i have the same tank and I run two 360we at 100% your corals need light to out compete the algae.

and last you shouldnt have a tail spot bleenie
In a frag tank. You don’t have rocks or sand so it would be very sad.
corals need 3 things stability/ food (fish poop) if you have one fish it’s not enough.
lights I don’t Think you have enough lights for the frag tank.

Good advice. Well said

 

[amado]

Here is another question for you are you growing coralline algae? You shouldn’t introduce corals to a system until you can grow coralline algae on its own.

 

[Hallowhead]

I don’t think you’re in a bad situation here with an immature system. if you have algae growing, it shows you have nutrients, even if it’s testing to zero. I feel this is a positive. I would recommend tuning up your clean up crew. Algae is part of a natural system, so get some more critters chomping on it.

another thing you may consider is connecting the two systems do a larger overall water volume. The more water, the slower changes (swings) happen.

Good luck

Dave

If I could connect the two I would they're 20 feet away horizontally and 10 vertically - plus I'm moving out of my parents house sooner than later

 

[Hallowhead]

Good advice. Well said

I think I'll begin with Increasing intensity and adding another fish

 

[Hallowhead]

Here is another question for you are you growing coralline algae? You shouldn’t introduce corals to a system until you can grow coralline algae on its own.

Not quite yet. I keep scrubbing which doesn't help

 

[amado]

dont Buy fish use that money and get a icp
Test. The test will let you test two tanks.
don’t buy anything until you get that back.
Rent a par meter even at 100% your lights are not strong enough.

good luck

 

[Hallowhead]

dont Buy fish use that money and get a icp
Test. The test will let you test two tanks.
don’t buy anything until you get that back.
Rent a par meter even at 100% your lights are not strong enough.

good luck

Not even to help eat algae ? Or add more CUC?

does anyone have a PAR meter to rent ?

 

[MadReefer]

about to ask a bunch of questions. Sorry but please try and answer everyone. Can’t say we can definitively figure this out but the devil is in the details. Feel free to add any info not on list that pops into your head. In the meantime slow down. I don’t know the timeline. But reading above you have tried more methods. Used more chems. And made more changes than I can wrap my head around. In only 6 months. This alone is not good and may not have anything to do with your algae problem. But I guarantee it’s why you have no growth. Corals grow when things are stable. Every single change you make. Good or bad. Is a stability change. Additionally, never make two changes at the same time. Or it is impossible to know what’s helping and hurting. Simple example. Never change light intensity AND photo period in the same two week period. How would you possibly know which was the problem Or if they preferred one or the other.

1. What is your magnesium
2. How many hours are your lights on.
3. are there any fish? If so what?
4. Do you have a rough idea of your water turn over rate. I am only referring to return pump.
5. What is your ruff turn over rate. Just power heads.
6. What is your feed schedule for the tank. Be as specific as you can. What do you feed. How much. How often.
7. Salt brand
8. Water change frequency and volume
9. Water temperature and do you check this often. Meaning is there any temp swings
10. Water salinity and it’s stability stability
11. You state your PH. But what’s its stability.

And finally. You need to be honest. Every tank. EVERY ONE has swings. When people answer these questions. I always hear zero swing. This is always not true ALWAYS. Swings are impossible to avoid it’s the nature of what we do and everything is effected by everything else. Our goal is to manage these swings. Because bigger swings equal INSTABILITY and this equals zero growth. You will see more growth in a tank that has a parameter out of wack if that parameter changes very little. Over a tank that’s parameter is closer to acceptable “normal” but tends to swing up and down to keep it there.
Best of luck. Take your time. Answer as many questions as you can. And let’s figure this out.

Agree, to much to fast. I did this when I first joined the club and a few members told me I was like a mad scientist in the old black and white movies.
Hence my name as MADREEFER.

 

[Hallowhead]

I am going no faster than my smaller AIO tank - and that tank is (knock on wood) doing great. I went so incredibly slow with the frag tank. Let it cycle for 2 months without touching it.. I than added CUC waited another month and than added fish & corals. I think algae came in on a frag and it multiplied & now my nutrients are all over the place.

Truthfully everyone has a different approach - and i am still trying to figure out what to do here. If i get an ICP test what is that going to do? Won't it still show false zero for nitrates?