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I need to learn about calcium reactors.

P

PMolan

Hey all.. I am looking to piece together a calcium reactor.
1) When I am looking for a tank valve, I find different types. Some with 1 gauge, some with 2. Which should I buy and what do they tell you. Some have bubble counters built in. Can this be added later or do I need to buy a complete unit. Also I assume an electric solinoid is a must to control co2 with an aquacontroller. Do I NEED to monitor the pH inside the reactor?
2) co2 tanks.. Does this need to be a specific tank? Are the threads common with lets say, propane? The reason is that my in-laws own a hot air balloon and have spare 40 gallon propane tanks. I'm the type of person to over buy so I dont need to worry about filling it any time soon.

I guess I know the concept behind the reactor and how it works, I am a little confused about the above points. Thanks.
 
JohnS_323

JohnS_323

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
You definitely want 2 gauges. The first one shows you how much CO2 you have left in the tank. The second one shows you your outflow pressure. It's not necessary to have a built in bubble counter, but you need one somewhere in the line. Some of the regulators come with a built in needle wheel, which is really nice to have. You don't need to monitor pH in the reactor but it's the most accurate. You can monitor effluent but the change in the reaction chamber is subject to some lag.

Here's basically how it works: The regulator hooks into the tank. One gauge let's you know how full the tank is. The second one gets set to something like 15 to 20 lbs. That's you're out flow pressure. The airline tube leaving the tank goes into a bubble counter. You use a needle wheel to step down that 15-20 lbs. of pressure to a rate of one bubble per second (to start - adjust to what works for you as you go). You use a pH probe to monitor pH, turning the solenoid on and off as necessary. For our setup, we have a 2 chamber reactor and measure effluent, so we use a range 6.8 to 7.0. This is theoretically, 0.2 over the values in chamber 1. If you have a probe directly in the first chamber, you'd want to use a range of 6.6 to 6.8 as ARM turns to mush below 6.5 (assuming you plan to use ARM).

As far as I know, all gas tanks are specific to the type of gas that they can be filled with. I don't think you'd be able to get a propane tank filled with CO2.

Here is a link to a good article on setting up a reactor.
 
P

PMolan

Today I received my ebay find. 20 lb. co2 canister. I have 2 newbie questions.

1> This is the valve on the tank. When I buy a solenoid valve with 2 guages, does it simply screw onto this. I want to get it filled before I get the valve.
DSC05872.jpg


2> Is this the date that this tank was last tested? If so, how long is it good for.
DSC05871.jpg
 
Phyl

Phyl

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
When we take a tank in to refill it they ALWAYS replace it. We never get our tank back (which was a real drag the first time we handed them a brand spanking new tank). Your pressure guage/solonoid screws onto the valve there in the photo.

I love your AC stats at the bottom of your post. Fun stuff right there!
 
mikem

mikem

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
Where I take mine, they just refill mine. I think the tank has to get Hydro'ed every 5 years.
 
JohnS_323

JohnS_323

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
Carlo said:
PMolan said:
Thanks for the input guys.. I wanted to stay away from the blue rhino method :)
Click to expand...

Don't knock it, Blue Rhino is great when you have an old tank and need an upgrade. :)

Carlo
Click to expand...

Yeah but it really stinks when you pay all that money for a BRAND SPANKING NEW cylinder, all shiney and clean, and the first time you take back to the SAME PLACE to get it filled they take it and hand you back an old one they just took from someone else. When it happened to me I was just standing there in stunned disbelief! I took my rusty ole POS and walked out of there in a daze :'(
 
C

Carlo

John, you should have asked for you new tank back and went to a different place. :)

Blue Rhino is ONLY good when you already have the POS tank and want something hopefully better!

Carlo
 
P

PMolan

Ok guys... I am 2/3 the way there. I brought the tank to the shop, and guess what, they pulled a blue rhino on me. :eek: Well, pros and cons with this. The earliest date stamped on my cylinder was from 1977. The one I got back was 84. However. The test date on the one that I gave in was 05/07. The one I got back was 09/05. Well, what are you going to do.

So I got my solenoid valve in the mail today. Set it up per the instructions. Its the milwakee one that everybody knocks, but I got it new on ebay for 60 bux or something.

I have the AC3 going to monitor and control the pH and co2. Can I inject this stuff into the skimmer for now? I already have the ozone going through it but I could T it since the skimmer sucks more than the ozone is being pushed into it. Basically I have the airline tube going from the ozone to the skimmer with a little notch cut out of the hose to pull air in with the ozone. This is so I dont starve the skimmer of air. So when it comes down to it, can I inject ozone and co2 into the skimmer at the same time? Or am I better of with an air stone in the sump. I keep seeing co2 reactors on ebay but wanted to use what I have around the house first.

I want to master the controling the pH with the co2 before investing in a calcium reactor. I didnt want try to calibrate everything at once. Also this gives me time to save up for that $600 MTC I've been drooling over :)
 
Phyl

Phyl

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
*scratches head*

Why do you want to add CO2 to your tank? I do everything in my power to remove CO2 from my tank. What does your PH run at?
 
P

PMolan

Its always high. 8.4 - 8.6. Other posts recoment vinegar, others say vinegar is bad. Some say add seltzer to lower pH. The aquacontroller suggests this method for keeping pH in check.

QUOTE
For pH control typically CO2 is injected into the aquarium when the pH rises too high. The AquaController III continuously monitors the pH and can turn the CO2 injection system on or off based upon the user defined high and low set points. Because of the AquaController III's highly programmable nature, it is possible to control pH in new and nonstandard ways. For example, in reef tanks with a calcium reactor it is desirable to stop injecting CO2 into the reaction chamber if the pH of the tank falls too low. The AquaController III is currently the only known controller on the market capable of this type of control. The CO2 injection system is not included with AquaController III. The modal ORP/second pH connector can used to control the pH of secondary water source.
 
C

Carlo

Try the "Carlo Approach" - add more fish. They breath in O2 and release CO2. I "had" to do this on my system because the pH was to high also.

Kidding aside, additional bio-load will do the trick and so will the CO2 injection. You'll also get a pH lowering affect from the Calcium/Alk/Mg (adds all 3) reactor. I'm assuming you are going to target 8.3 to 8.4 correct? No need to go lower then that.

This is an interesting problem. The CO2 injection might interfere with the ozone injection but may not. Depending on where you have the pH and ORP probes they could get fooled by the injection of either of these to a small degree. If possible keep your probes in the tank and not the sump for good measure.

You should be able to do what you're asking but keep an eye on the ORP level and make sure it doesn't get tripped up.

Carlo

PS If you aren't at ZERO on nitrates and phosphates I myself would do a slow vinegar drip mixed with RO/DI water. Besides the lowering of pH you'll introduce carbon as a secondary process and this will help lower your nitrates and phosphates. The drip itself could be controlled by the AC3 powering a small dosing pump based on your pH values.

I'd much prefer this to directly injecting CO2 especially with ozone into the skimmer. This is just my thought but it sounds like you've already explored the vinegar solution.
 
M

mladencovic

It seems to me that you have misunderstood the whole process, so, if you permit me, I will try to explain it in simple terms:

Corals use calcium carbonate to build their skeletons, that they pull from water in the form of calcium and carbonate ions. The source of those ions (in natural way) would be calcium carbonate that your live rocks, sand and calcium reactor's media (aragonite) are made of. The problem is that, on its own, calcium carbonate does not dissolve (breaks into those ions used by corals) in water in any significant amount. However, if you add some kind of acid in the water, that acid will help dissolve the calcium carbonate. In reality any kind of acid will do that, and some people are even using vinegar for that. Another possibility is carbonic acid. Dissolved carbon dioxide (CO2), which is ever present in the normal water, will react with water in small amount to form carbonic acid. So this is a basic principle how calcium reactor works - you inject small amount of CO2 (just a few bubbles per minute) into the water in Ca reactor. This gaseous CO2 slowly dissolves in the water, some of which forming carbonic acid. This process is relatively slow, and that is why you let the gassed water in the reactor stay in the reactor as long as possible (the flow of tank water in and out of the reactor is very small - measured in ml per minute). At the same time, the water in the reactor is vigorously pumpped around (to help dissolving of CO2) and through the media (aragonite) so that carbonic acid can disolve as much of the calcium carbonate as possible.

So what is wrong with your proposal:
- as Phyllis has pointed out, you try to avoid adding CO2 in the tank for several reasons: first of all in excess concentration it is harmfull to living things the same way as it would be to humans - you will be choking fish and corals. Second, more CO2 wuld lead to more carbonic acid which will lower pH of your tank water, and would be affecting the rest of the chemistry in the tank.
- adding CO2 in front of the skimmer will result in skimming process help remove the just added CO2 in the water. First, it takes time for CO2 to disolve in the water, so basically most of CO2 (bubbles) will simply escape in the air. Also, remeber that the same way CO2 from the atmosphere will disolve in the water, the gasses from the water will be released back to the atmosphere. This porcess tends to create a balance between the concentrations of CO2 in the air and in the water, so the increased concentration in the water will be gradually reduced.
- finally, if any of the CO2 survives the skimmer, and creates some of the carbonic acid, most of that carbonic acid will end up in the tank (even if you push it through some kind of Ca media in some kind of reactor). That means that, once in the tank, it will start working and dissolving your rocks and sand, which is something that I am pretty much sure no one wants.
 
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