Some personal suggestions on QT needed

[Kai]

Hi everyone,
I posted a similar thread on R2R so I'm sorry if you're seeing it again, but this is a much more close community and I can already predict the answers I'm going to get there since there's a lot more 'robots' who just sit out the same information no matter what.

So over the weekend I got a fresh bunch of fish from LFS. I got 4 clown gobies and 2 blennies. The first clown goby died within 24 hours. The second within 48. They were both disgustingly skinny when I got them, I hadn't noticed at the store. I have a third who is super super skinny as well but will eat some brine shrimp when I put some in front of him.

Now in the process of the first day or two I had them I had an ammonia spike because I misjudged just how quickly a fish creates ammonia in different volumes of water. I planned to do a dip with methylene blue, but I've been using prime to reduce ammonia levels and since I can't seem to find confirmation that it's okay to use methylene blue with prime I won't do it until I'm able to get a fresh batch of water to do it in.

I want to make sure that my tank is as disease free as possible but frankly at this point I think I'll have to steer more towards immunity than disease free.

My first problem is that I'm afraid to treat the fish with anything until the one has put some weight back on. I had considered prazi for possible internal issues because of the skinny fish, but I went back to LFS today and they got a new batch of clown gobies and they were all extremely skinny as well but all of the other fish there are quite healthy from what I can see. So that made me think that maybe the skinny clown goby is just because they're so small and they don't do well with shipping and whatnot.

Another problem is that I planned on doing TTM. Well I have messed that up so many times I lost count. As it turns out I am really really bad at keeping from cross contaminating things. Even my salt mixing trash can would need to be sterilized and it's full of water. I'm also limited to space with my QT setup because of construction meaning that my fish and frag QTs are next to each other so there you've got airborne transmission. And another problem with TTM is that because of the delay with the clown gobies not eating, it now puts 2 transfers after I've started school and work. I'm inefficient. It takes me several hours to do a transfer and I do not have several hours every 3 days to transfer fish with TTM.

And of course because that wasn't enough, the fish that I've had for 2 months got cross contaminated with the fish that I just got, so they're all together now for ease of care.

I'm thinking that I should just try to do an observational something and treat as needed? Do any of you have any suggestions on what roads you think I should take? Of course if a fish displays something I'll take the appropriate action, but I just don't have time to be doing daily or every 3 day hour long maintenance starting next week.

Should I just put them all in a big tank, take some live rock and sponges from the display, and keep the in there? Rock and sponges to help ensure there's some sort of biological filtration and would be treated accordingly should there be an illness.

Sorry, that's quite long winded.
And if anyone has any experience to share with the health of the fish from Absolutely Fish, feel free to pm me so I know what the likelihood is that they'll be sick.

 

[ecam]

@Humblefish

 

[ecam]

@Kai I’ve tagged our resident expert on Fish disease and qt.

 

[DangerDave]

I don't do it. I'm lean towards the resistant reef camp. If something shows up, I manage it. It works for me, but my opinion may change if I have a catastrophic event....

Dave

 

[ecam]

I don't do it. I'm lean towards the resistant reef camp. If something shows up, I manage it. It works for me, but my opinion may change if I have a catastrophic event....

Dave

After 3 catastrophic events. I QT everything for at least 3 weeks before it touches my tank

 

[horseplay]

I don’t QT and it has worked for me. Some will say I am lucky I don’t dispute that. Small sample size. Out of the 50+ fish i kept over the years I lost two due to disease. But the rest of the fish in the tank live on without being affected. I have lost plenty of tough to keep fish but once the fish are acclimated in my tank they don’t die. I never had a catastrophe. Paul B has published a lot of his experience on this and I share the same.

IMO the two biggest factors that kill fish are stress and nutrition. A fish constantly being chased with nowhere to hide will get sick then die. A fish that’s comfortable will spend less energy and foraging for fooD in peace. And I try my best to feed the fish especially when I get a new fish I will double the amount of feeding. I make sure the new fish can eat until it doesn’t want to eat anymore.

And other than that, I make sure I don’t get a fish that’s already look sick.

 

[diana a]

It sounds like you didn't have an established QT. I keep one running all the time. If I didn't have one running but had a feeling that I may buy a new fish or two, I would siphon water from the DT to QT or bacteria in a bottle. Use the largest QT you can. I don't buy more than 2 small compatible fishes at a time. I am using a 20 gallon quarantine tank. Inside would be PVC for fish(es) to hide, heater, powerhead and filter is optional. If no filter then you need to do a water change everyday. You don't want a lot of fish at one time in QT due to not stress out your filter limits. I have a box ammonia test strips for QT use only. Look at the fish before you buy it. I want a fish that looks healthy before buying. If it looks healthy, I use Ruby Reef HydroPlex dip before it goes into quarantine tank. (If it isn't healthy then I would not dip it in your case) I would fatten up the fish first. I feed the fish(es) with live food in QT. I will observe the fish for 4 weeks before going DT. I don't have a tank that can support tangs but if I did, tangs would be QT for longer period. I don't do any further treatments unless there is a possible problem.

 

[ecam]

I agree with @diana a for QTs, I keep sponges in my display that I use in my QT when the time comes, siphon water from display and throw in a bottle of Dr tims bacteria for instant cycle...

Dont ever put anything back into the display from QT. its a one way trip then to garbage

 

[Kai]

It sounds like you didn't have an established QT. I keep one running all the time. If I didn't have one running but had a feeling that I may buy a new fish or two, I would siphon water from the DT to QT or bacteria in a bottle. Use the largest QT you can. I don't buy more than 2 small compatible fishes at a time. I am using a 20 gallon quarantine tank. Inside would be PVC for fish(es) to hide, heater, powerhead and filter is optional. If no filter then you need to do a water change everyday. You don't want a lot of fish at one time in QT due to not stress out your filter limits. I have a box ammonia test strips for QT use only. Look at the fish before you buy it. I want a fish that looks healthy before buying. If it looks healthy, I use Ruby Reef HydroPlex dip before it goes into quarantine tank. (If it isn't healthy then I would not dip it in your case) I would fatten up the fish first. I feed the fish(es) with live food in QT. I will observe the fish for 4 weeks before going DT. I don't have a tank that can support tangs but if I did, tangs would be QT for longer period. I don't do any further treatments unless there is a possible problem.

That's correct I didn't since I planned on doing a TTM from the start since I never had problems with fish eating right away until this batch. It wasn't until I saw the fish from the top down once it was in my tank at home that I noticed just how thin it was and decided that doing a transfer would likely be way too stressful on a fish that wasn't really eating to begin with.
I've never come across reading about Ruby Reef HydroPlex before, I'll have to take a look at it.

I agree with @diana a for QTs, I keep sponges in my display that I use in my QT when the time comes, siphon water from display and throw in a bottle of Dr tims bacteria for instant cycle...

Dont ever put anything back into the display from QT. its a one way trip then to garbage

I do have some sponges that have been in the sump, and some rocks that have been in there too that I could throw in a tank just to make sure there's some biological filtration going which could be cleaned and everything after, or just used in the frag tank I'd been planning. I do want to have a proper QT of the fish, but it just seems like there's no one or two things that could effectively get everything treated and gone so I could make sure it's not going into my display. I've heard about enough crashes to want to take any step I can to avoid that.

 

[Kai]

I don’t QT and it has worked for me. Some will say I am lucky I don’t dispute that. Small sample size. Out of the 50+ fish i kept over the years I lost two due to disease. But the rest of the fish in the tank live on without being affected. I have lost plenty of tough to keep fish but once the fish are acclimated in my tank they don’t die. I never had a catastrophe. Paul B has published a lot of his experience on this and I share the same.

IMO the two biggest factors that kill fish are stress and nutrition. A fish constantly being chased with nowhere to hide will get sick then die. A fish that’s comfortable will spend less energy and foraging for fooD in peace. And I try my best to feed the fish especially when I get a new fish I will double the amount of feeding. I make sure the new fish can eat until it doesn’t want to eat anymore.

And other than that, I make sure I don’t get a fish that’s already look sick.

It does sound like you're very lucky, I've looked at Paul B's things, it just seems like there's a whole lot more ongoing maintenance for that method than there is to treat at the beginning and call it a day more or less.
I have passed on other fish that I didn't like the behavior of, none of the fish I've seen at LFS have looked sick. It's only been these clown gobies. I didn't notice until I got home but when I went back the next time I knew what to try to look for and noticed it then so now I know for next time to very closely examine the fish even if they appear fine at first glance some hide sunken bellies better than others.

 

[Trio91]

The first clown goby died within 24 hours. The second within 48. They were both disgustingly skinny when I got them

For me this would've been a red flag.

I went back to LFS today and they got a new batch of clown gobies and they were all extremely skinny as well

The 1st step in Qt'ing in my opinion starts with you at the LFS.

• Visually inspect and look out for obvious things like heavy breathing, torn fins, erratic swimming behavior, signs of Ich etc.
• Play dumb and ask questions about the fish (even if you already know the answers). Where they come from, personality, swimming patterns etc.
• Ask them to feed the fish infront of you and also ask what they typically feed (dried, frozen etc.) Personally If it doesn't eat I wouldn't trust it.
• In this case you knew, but ask how long they have had them in their system
• Do they Qt on their end

What size Qt tank were you using for all those fish?

If the TTM & Qt'ing isn't working on your part, you may just want to skip it and go a more controlled and simpler route.

 

[Kai]

For me this would've been a red flag.


The 1st step in Qt'ing in my opinion starts with you at the LFS.

• Visually inspect and look out for obvious things like heavy breathing, torn fins, erratic swimming behavior, signs of Ick etc.
• Play dumb and ask questions about the fish (even if you already know the answers). Where they come from, personality, swimming patterns etc.
• Ask them to feed the fish infront of you and also ask what they typically feed (dried, frozen etc.) Personally If it doesn't eat I wouldn't trust it.
• In this case you knew, but ask how long they have had them in their system
• Do they Qt on their end

What size Qt tank were you using for all those fish?

If the TTM & Qt'ing isn't working on your part, you may just want to skip it and go a more controlled and simpler route.

Of course it was something that made me pay closer attention to everything, but by that point there wasn't all that much I could do. I acclimated them all to a 10 gallon when I got them. I planned to have them there, with seeded and used sponges and a rock full of algae for one of the fish, until I was sure all was well and had something worked out for TTM. By the next day I was ready for TTM. So when I collected all of the fish out of the 10 gallon to start to transfer them, that's when I noticed how thin one was. It had already been netted so I put it in it's container and began trying to feed a variety of different frozen foods in the hopes it would eat something. When I was collecting all the fish out of the 10 gallon the first clown goby to die was nowhere to be found. I had noticed that one was thin when putting it in there originally but I didn't realize how bad it was. I'm new so yeah I've seen thin fish before at Petco, but I never realized how immediately detrimental it was, so I fed the tank with some different foods and went on. When it was nowhere to be found the next day (there were also several shrimp in there) then I realized that how thin the other one was was indeed something to be concerned about so the intense feeding started. The one that I had begun to feed much more had died in the next day. The third one that's remaining has been eating some brine shrimp, but it had taken some time to hatch them of course. I'm not sure what more I could have done with that red flag. When the first one died I immediately realized the gravity of the situation and started with more intense and closely observed feedings, the brine shrimp just didn't hatch in time for the 2nd goby.

I guess I'm just saying that I know I didn't get the best start and that I could have done a much more through examination at the store. I can't do anything about that this time but learn for next time. For now I'm trying my best to help the remaining fish that I have which is why I've turned to both forums in the hopes of getting as many different helpful opinions and experiences as I can.

They're now in a wide tupperware tote, like the style that's meant for sliding under the bed or something like that. It's got about 10-12 gallons of water in it' it's shallow, but it's got a large footprint which is good for the number of fish that now have to be in there. If I end up doing a prolonged treatment I'll likely set up my old 29.

What would you consider a more controlled and simpler route? That's one of the things I'm here to ask since I don't know what many would consider that to be.

 

[MadReefer]

I agree with Horseplay. I am very finicky when buying fish. I will look for health signs, is it being harassed in LFS tank, does it eat and what, is it fat/skinny, any dead or sick fish in that tank or tanks on same filter system, etc. I tend to leave often with no purchase based on these observations. Have I lost new fish, yes, they just could not deal with my other fish pestering them no matter what I did.

 

[ecam]

QT is a job in itself. i treat pre-emptively b\c i dont have strong observation skills and by the time i notice its too late.

I have to tanks.. One for copper (55 gallon - i have a lot of tangs) and one for observation (40 breedder.) The observation tank has a UV attached. I place fish in the observation tank get him eating and then start with Prazi and then slowly dose copper for 30 days and then into display. if they dont make it in QT i feel bad but relived that I didnt infect my Display. ive lost a LOT of fish in QT!!!!

but all display fish are great and thriving (only fish that was bypassed was a Copperband I got from @horseplay b\c I know him well and he assured me of no signs of issues... eats like a pig)

 

[horseplay]

It does sound like you're very lucky, I've looked at Paul B's things, it just seems like there's a whole lot more ongoing maintenance for that method than there is to treat at the beginning and call it a day more or less.
I have passed on other fish that I didn't like the behavior of, none of the fish I've seen at LFS have looked sick. It's only been these clown gobies. I didn't notice until I got home but when I went back the next time I knew what to try to look for and noticed it then so now I know for next time to very closely examine the fish even if they appear fine at first glance some hide sunken bellies better than others.

Paul raises and feeds live food. I only feed frozen food. So it's pretty simple for me. But the idea is the same, stuff the fish with an abundance of food. I occasionally buy live black worms but don't remember the last time I did it. I guess some of the gut bacteria Paul talks about must've survived the frozen process.

TTM only help with eliminating Ich. Ich is not a big problem. So it's not worth the stress on the fish to do it preventively IMO. I see ich come and go in my tank especially when new fish are introduced. If all the fish are already healthy, ich parasite cannot reach critical mass, it will just slowly disappear. If I see a lot of Ich on one fish I would take it out and do TTM. But I have not encountered this situation.

Other problem can be avoided (albeit not totally eliminated) by observation when purchasing the fish. I spend a lot of time looking at a fish at the store before pulling the trigger so generally get a healthy fish.

I do setup a separate tank for salinity matching for mail order fish. As for mail order fish I do not have enough time for salinity acclimation and I would not be able to observe the fish before purchasing it. After a few days in the acclimation tank the fish is moved to the DT.

 

[Kai]

QT is a job in itself. i treat pre-emptively b\c i dont have strong observation skills and by the time i notice its too late. ...
but all display fish are great and thriving (only fish that was bypassed was a Copperband I got from @horseplay b\c I know him well and he assured me of no signs of issues... eats like a pig)

At this point I would feel much more comfortable treating preemptively as you've said. I was against it at first because yeah, why would you treat something that isn't sick? But by now I think I like that idea better. I suppose I'll be getting a copper test kit and all that since copper seems to be the go-to.

Paul raises and feeds live food. I only feed frozen food. So it's pretty simple for me. But the idea is the same, stuff the fish with an abundance of food. I occasionally buy live black worms but don't remember the last time I did it. I guess some of the gut bacteria Paul talks about must've survived the frozen process.
...
I do setup a separate tank for salinity matching for mail order fish. As for mail order fish I do not have enough time for salinity acclimation and I would not be able to observe the fish before purchasing it. After a few days in the acclimation tank the fish is moved to the DT.

I'd love to take the natural approach like Paul B does, but I know myself and I know that it would come back to bite me so it's not an option. Paul B and even you with the frozen food, put a lot into even just the daily care. And I need to know that if something comes up and all they get are some pellets and flakes for a bit that something won't break out because I haven't been feeding them cubes of a dozen different frozen foods all the time. Plus college reefer here. Frozen food is expensive. College is even more expensive. And a car to get to college and to get the frozen food is also expensive.

 

[ecam]

Get in line for a Hanna check most accurate possible

 

[Kai]

If my DT has had prime in it at some point, can I no longer use the sponges from the sump if I'm going to be using copper?

 

[Kai]

Get in line for a Hanna check most accurate possible

Yes, I'll be getting one. Figure it's a decent investment. What sort of copper would you say is best to use?

Did a methylene blue dip. Gosh I hate doing dips it's terrifying! I managed to set up my old 29 which I put them in with some fresh water since I'm still not sure where everything stands in terms of prime. I left the skinny goby in it's acclimation box and just lifted the box from the tank, to the dip, then to the fresh water, but the box had prime in it so I just want to make sure that it'll be okay with the copper as long as I don't add any more prime. If a residue or anything in the filter foam will cause a problem then I won't add the rest of the water that I'm making. It's only got several inches now since I didn't have a ton of prime-free water on hand.

 

[Trio91]

• Tank Transfer Method
• Methylene Blue
• a fish kept in a box with Prime
• now talk about copper treatment

I mean to me, it seems you're just spit balling with every Qt method out there. The only thing missing from this list is a Freshwater Dip. I don't mean to sound harsh @Kai but I think you should've done some more research 1st before playing mad scientist. I'd be really surprised if any of your fish survive after all that.