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Tying into the Basement - Pic Intensive
- Thread starter JohnS_323
- Start date
Impressive John and Phyllis! I am soaking this up like a sponge. Fascinating on manifold technique. Putting together visions of plumbing to our basement someday.
Thx! Bob
Thx! Bob
Where did you get the storage tanks for the RO/DI and Salt water water changes (the 55 gallon drums) and approx cost for each? I assume they are potable water safe? I was think of using an extruded foam (similar material to what Rubbermaid uses for their 100 gallon watering tanks - like the ones you are using for your sump) Waste water Sump made by Flotec / Jackel Inc - these are grey/black structural foam see link
http://www.jackelinc.com/cat-foam-sump-basins.htm
and they come in several sizes and are relatively inexpensive $20.00 at home depot for a 30 gallon.
Question is are they safe to use with RO/DI and/or salt water mix? I plan to call the manufacturer
Also - I assume that the RO/DI fill is through some automated top off system with floats in the sump and also is the RO/DI fill of the 55 gallon containers also automatically regulated with a float / solenoid system controlling the output of the RO/DI system?
Any problems with the check valves? getting clogged with calcium or other deposits?
For a Sequence Barracuda (I have a 180 gallon reef tank and I am building almost exactly what you are showing here - GREAT DRAWINGS!!!) would I need to run 2" pipe for the drains (both only 1" bulkheads in Oceanic tank with 3/4" returns x 2) and returns? I was planning on 1 1/2 flex PVC for the returns and for the drains with a 2" Manifold or a 1 1/2" Manifold - the Barracuda has a 1 1/2 inch input and output. For both returns and drains my plan was to run only a single 1 1/2" Flex for each through the floor and then under the tank (in the stand) do a similar "T" for the returns downsizing to 3/4" at the bulkhead and a Waste "Y" connector at 1 1/2" with 1" drains at the bulkhead (using a reducer bushing) - so the only 2" pipe I would have (if at all) would be at the Manifold itself
When I upgrade from my current 70 gallon tank to the 180 - I was trying to figure out what to do with the 70 (48x18x21 H) - I have 2 Rubbermaid 100 gallon sumps - Is a 70 overkill for a refugium or a combo refugium / frag grow out? I also have ordered 38"x20"x6"H compartmentalized acrylic frag growout - it is shallow so I wouldn't need MH - these are built similar to a betta show tank. Got them cheap not sure if it will work (have 2 new ones)
Chris
http://www.jackelinc.com/cat-foam-sump-basins.htm
and they come in several sizes and are relatively inexpensive $20.00 at home depot for a 30 gallon.
Question is are they safe to use with RO/DI and/or salt water mix? I plan to call the manufacturer
Also - I assume that the RO/DI fill is through some automated top off system with floats in the sump and also is the RO/DI fill of the 55 gallon containers also automatically regulated with a float / solenoid system controlling the output of the RO/DI system?
Any problems with the check valves? getting clogged with calcium or other deposits?
For a Sequence Barracuda (I have a 180 gallon reef tank and I am building almost exactly what you are showing here - GREAT DRAWINGS!!!) would I need to run 2" pipe for the drains (both only 1" bulkheads in Oceanic tank with 3/4" returns x 2) and returns? I was planning on 1 1/2 flex PVC for the returns and for the drains with a 2" Manifold or a 1 1/2" Manifold - the Barracuda has a 1 1/2 inch input and output. For both returns and drains my plan was to run only a single 1 1/2" Flex for each through the floor and then under the tank (in the stand) do a similar "T" for the returns downsizing to 3/4" at the bulkhead and a Waste "Y" connector at 1 1/2" with 1" drains at the bulkhead (using a reducer bushing) - so the only 2" pipe I would have (if at all) would be at the Manifold itself
When I upgrade from my current 70 gallon tank to the 180 - I was trying to figure out what to do with the 70 (48x18x21 H) - I have 2 Rubbermaid 100 gallon sumps - Is a 70 overkill for a refugium or a combo refugium / frag grow out? I also have ordered 38"x20"x6"H compartmentalized acrylic frag growout - it is shallow so I wouldn't need MH - these are built similar to a betta show tank. Got them cheap not sure if it will work (have 2 new ones)
Chris
Chris, we got the storage containers from a member named Jess who was selling them a while back (here is the link). Unfortunately, he hasn't been around lately and this thread is quite old. You can try PM'ing him to see if he still has any. They are great. They hold about 55 gallons and are potable water safe. We have 2 integrated into the system and a 3rd that we use all of the time for various things. I recommend them if you can get ahold of them.
The system has a couple of different float switches. There is a Kent float switch in one of the white 55g drums. That's hooked up to the feed from our RO/DI fliter. There is only fresh water in there so we don't have to worry about it getting clogged with mineral deposits.Â
There is a dual float swith setup from AutoTopOff.com in the sump. So far (and I can't believe I'm typing this), we haven't had any problems with that one. As a backup, it is connected to an Aquacontroller so it only turns on for 1 minute every 6 hours. The switch controlls a Mag9 in the fresh water barrel that is used to top off the sump.
Let me digest everything you wrote about your drain and return plans when I get home (damn work gettin' the way again!)
The system has a couple of different float switches. There is a Kent float switch in one of the white 55g drums. That's hooked up to the feed from our RO/DI fliter. There is only fresh water in there so we don't have to worry about it getting clogged with mineral deposits.Â
There is a dual float swith setup from AutoTopOff.com in the sump. So far (and I can't believe I'm typing this), we haven't had any problems with that one. As a backup, it is connected to an Aquacontroller so it only turns on for 1 minute every 6 hours. The switch controlls a Mag9 in the fresh water barrel that is used to top off the sump.
Let me digest everything you wrote about your drain and return plans when I get home (damn work gettin' the way again!)
chriscolt said:
In our application, I am using a 2" pipe for the drain and 1.5" pipe for the return (we have the same setup of 1" drain and 3/4" return bulkheads). I have no drain problems with the 2" but never tried 1.5, so I have no idea if going with that size will cause you any trouble or not.
As far as the return line/manifold, the one thing I've always been told is to step up to the next size pipe from what ever your pump's output size is. In your case, if the pump's output is 1.5", you really should step right up to 2" pipe to feed the manifold. This will allow the pump to operate with minimal restriction or back pressure. At that point you would probably want to step up to a 3" manifold. The reason for this is it put's a lot of volume in the manifold, allowing individual outputs from the manifold to have plenty of water to draw from. If you were to feed a 2" manifold with a 1.5" pipe, and then try to draw water from a couple of 1.5" ports, they'd all be a bit starved (it's kind of like the problem in some homes, you flush the toilet and person in the shower screams!).
I feel compelled to say that this is just what I did. I did a bit of research and got a lot of good advice. The common theme I heard was "bigger is better" (to an extent). The point is to reduce the effects of loss due to friction, not place stress on the pump and provide as much available volume as possible.
I don't think 70g is over kill for a fuge. I'm not too sure about going with a fuge/grow out combo, though. Mainly because of the difference in flow requirements. As for the shallow tanks, 6" seems awful shallow. A couple of things there: One, if you got any flow at all going in there, you'd be blowing water all over the place. Two, typically when the system kicks on after a power failure or planned shut off, the water level rises a bit before the overflows catch up. You'd have to have the running level so low to allow for that surge that it might not be practical to use (this assumes you plan to tie it into your main system).
HTH!
Re: Tying into the Basement - Pic Intensive - John - Plumbing problems
John
I copied your design almost exactly and took your advice to increase the size of the manifold to 3" - I also added the check valves from Home Depot/Lowes to the return to the tank and to the automatic water changer (to the sewer line) with a couple of more safety mods - I added an AVV (automatic Vent valve) that is used on "center console bar sinks" when a sewer line vent stack through the roof is impractical and a "P" trap - this is the "belt with suspenders" approach to not allowing any sewer gases or waste water from entering the manifold. I have pics.
The biggest difference is that my 100 gallon Rubbermaid already had a 1" drain in a spot that was only wide enough for a 1" bulkhead - so I used it and added a 2" drain (Bulkhead) about 6 inches along the same horizontal line and connected both together using a "T" fitting - so that is a total of a 2" Bulkhead and 1" bulkhead feeding a 2" line to the pump intake (Barracuda - downsized to a 1 1/2 line at the pump) - then 1 1/2 fitting up sized with a reducer bushing to a 2" pipe on the pump output to a 3" manifold, then 1 1/2 valves/unions to 1 1/2 flex to the dual 3/4" Oceanic tank returns - the Tank drains are dual 1" up sized using reducing bushings to 2" "T"ed together and a 2" drain solid PVC back down to the sump - I have a 1 1/2 valved output from the manifold going right back to the sump (a bypass output) to allow the pump to run full out without creating to much backpressure due to the "valved down" return to the tank (too much flow otherwise) - NOW THE PROBLEM - I am getting spurts of large bubble - like air pockets forming in the returns every 30 seconds - that causes the water in the tank to splash all over the place never mind the noise - the SUMP is about half full (about 4 inches above the 2" bulkhead) - what can be causing the air buildup?? - The only way so far to stop it is to reduce the flow at the tank (I have 1" valves at each return bulkhead for maintenance purposes - if I turn these about half closed the air disappears but the flow is way too slow)
The only thing I can think of is
"A" - the 2" plus 1" bulkheads in the sump are not large enough to keep up with the pump suction causing cavitation (BAD!!!)
"B" I have strainers over each Sump bulkhead (the screw type) to prevent snails / coral rocks from getting into the pump - this is causing flow restriction or cavitation,
"C" The output of the Euroreef Skimmeris directly over the 2" Sump Bulkhead causing air to get into the intake line
"D" - The tank is too far away from the sump - about 30 linear feet of 1 1/2 PVC Spa Flex,
"E" I have some slow drips on the manifold end caps and at a couple of the manifold output "T"s (at the unions and/or ball valve connections) - maybe these leaks are causing air to enter the manifold / returns
I have the pump Throttled down by about 25% at the feed to the manifold, bypass to sump open about 2/3, and valve to tank open 100% (otherwise the tank sand gets blown to hell)..
I will eliminate all of the above (except the 30' of pipe and the holes/bulkhead too small in the sump problem since this requires dismantling / emptying the sump)
Did you have this air pocket problem?? Do you have anything else I can check?
I have a full set of construction and end product Pictures if that helps
Chris
John
I copied your design almost exactly and took your advice to increase the size of the manifold to 3" - I also added the check valves from Home Depot/Lowes to the return to the tank and to the automatic water changer (to the sewer line) with a couple of more safety mods - I added an AVV (automatic Vent valve) that is used on "center console bar sinks" when a sewer line vent stack through the roof is impractical and a "P" trap - this is the "belt with suspenders" approach to not allowing any sewer gases or waste water from entering the manifold. I have pics.
The biggest difference is that my 100 gallon Rubbermaid already had a 1" drain in a spot that was only wide enough for a 1" bulkhead - so I used it and added a 2" drain (Bulkhead) about 6 inches along the same horizontal line and connected both together using a "T" fitting - so that is a total of a 2" Bulkhead and 1" bulkhead feeding a 2" line to the pump intake (Barracuda - downsized to a 1 1/2 line at the pump) - then 1 1/2 fitting up sized with a reducer bushing to a 2" pipe on the pump output to a 3" manifold, then 1 1/2 valves/unions to 1 1/2 flex to the dual 3/4" Oceanic tank returns - the Tank drains are dual 1" up sized using reducing bushings to 2" "T"ed together and a 2" drain solid PVC back down to the sump - I have a 1 1/2 valved output from the manifold going right back to the sump (a bypass output) to allow the pump to run full out without creating to much backpressure due to the "valved down" return to the tank (too much flow otherwise) - NOW THE PROBLEM - I am getting spurts of large bubble - like air pockets forming in the returns every 30 seconds - that causes the water in the tank to splash all over the place never mind the noise - the SUMP is about half full (about 4 inches above the 2" bulkhead) - what can be causing the air buildup?? - The only way so far to stop it is to reduce the flow at the tank (I have 1" valves at each return bulkhead for maintenance purposes - if I turn these about half closed the air disappears but the flow is way too slow)
The only thing I can think of is
"A" - the 2" plus 1" bulkheads in the sump are not large enough to keep up with the pump suction causing cavitation (BAD!!!)
"B" I have strainers over each Sump bulkhead (the screw type) to prevent snails / coral rocks from getting into the pump - this is causing flow restriction or cavitation,
"C" The output of the Euroreef Skimmeris directly over the 2" Sump Bulkhead causing air to get into the intake line
"D" - The tank is too far away from the sump - about 30 linear feet of 1 1/2 PVC Spa Flex,
"E" I have some slow drips on the manifold end caps and at a couple of the manifold output "T"s (at the unions and/or ball valve connections) - maybe these leaks are causing air to enter the manifold / returns
I have the pump Throttled down by about 25% at the feed to the manifold, bypass to sump open about 2/3, and valve to tank open 100% (otherwise the tank sand gets blown to hell)..
I will eliminate all of the above (except the 30' of pipe and the holes/bulkhead too small in the sump problem since this requires dismantling / emptying the sump)
Did you have this air pocket problem?? Do you have anything else I can check?
I have a full set of construction and end product Pictures if that helps
Chris
Hi Chris, let me go over this again when I get home to see if I spot anything that could be causing your problem. At first glance, it appears that it could be a result of the skimmer output but I think that would be more in the form of micro bubbles. Large spurts of bubbles is a little strange. I wonder if maybe you're pulling a vortex into your bulk heads? 4" of water above them doesn't sound like a lot, especially for a pump that size.
I don't think it could be a cavitation issue because it sounds like you should be sending plenty of water to the pump. I also think that if you had leaks big enough in your end caps to cause that sort of bubbling, you'd see a pretty good amount of water dripping out.
Like I said, let me go over this again when I get home and see if anything else jumps out at me.
Oh, and please, POST SOME PICS
I'm interested in seeing your "belt and suspenders"! I may want to copy that.
I don't think it could be a cavitation issue because it sounds like you should be sending plenty of water to the pump. I also think that if you had leaks big enough in your end caps to cause that sort of bubbling, you'd see a pretty good amount of water dripping out.
Like I said, let me go over this again when I get home and see if anything else jumps out at me.
Oh, and please, POST SOME PICS
I'm interested in seeing your "belt and suspenders"! I may want to copy that.I found the problem - it was in fact the output of the skimmer (the skimmer is an older Giant Euroreef CS 12-2 with 2 Sedra 5000 bubble wheel pumps) - the overflow from the skimmer contained too much air and was directly over the 2" Bulkhead input to the return pump.
I will post pics on a new DIY Topic called something like Chris's new 180 gallon Reef - Basement Sump (ala John S_323..) - but so you don't have to wait - here is the Pic of the modified connection to the main sanitary drain stack
Chris
I will post pics on a new DIY Topic called something like Chris's new 180 gallon Reef - Basement Sump (ala John S_323..) - but so you don't have to wait - here is the Pic of the modified connection to the main sanitary drain stack
Chris
Nice work. I can't wait to see the rest of the pics and I'm really glad you figured out the problem. You're gonna love doing water changes now! Last week we did a 170g change on Monday and then another 150g change on Friday. We completely drained the sump and fuge the first day and the frag tank on the second. It couldn't have been easier. Now everything is nice and clean once again.
I didn't explain what is in the picture - you may have figured it out - the differences (other than the sloppy purple priming job) - is the "P" trap or "U" trap as some call it - that is the series of elbows that form a "U" to trap sewer gases - they come pre-made in 2" and 1 1/2" (a lot neater) but I had some extra 45 degree elbows so I made one, this is all 1-1/2 inch PVC. The second difference is the center riser pipe - the one in the middle - this is dead ended (minimum of 4 inches above "Trap") - on the top of this riser is the AAV (also known as a "Studor valve" or "cheater air vent valve") - Typically, when you install any kind of drain to the main or branch drain stack - you need to have a vent usually through the roof of the house - this allows pressure to equalize in the drainage system and water to flow down. Without a vent, there is a possibly of slow drains and bubble up backup through the drain when a toilet or sink on the upper levels is operated - the AAV is sold in Lowes or home depot and costs about $22.00 (buy the better one) - it consists of a diaphragm that is pressure operated - when the system is flushed during a water change, the flow of water causes a "draft" - this vent opens when it senses this change in atmospheric pressure and allows air to enter the drain so that the salt water flows down the sewer stack instead of pulling air from the appliances above the basement (toilet or sink "U" Trap) - otherwise it is possible that the draft the water change system causes may pull the water out of traps on the upper level causing noxious gases to vent through those appliances upstairs - like the bathroom sink or toilet which will cause the wife to reach out and strangle you - or me. Of course the work around is to make sure you run upstairs and flush the toilet that is on the same stack as the water changer and run water in the sink to refill the traps after every water change - Installing the AAV is a lot easier. As you can see - I added a "T" about 2 feet of PVC and the AAV on top. The U or P trap for the water changer is optional since we already have 2 valves that are normally off and the check valve that is normally closed - so there is no where for the gases to vent in the basement - but I like to follow the code just in case - the trap in the basement can't hurt anything.
Chris
Chris