Inherited 90

[redfishbluefish]

Trouble in Dodge

I’ve got a pretty good eye for things being square.


So I’m in the closet to the right of the tank this morning, and I look out at the side of the tank. To my eye, it looks like the top of the tank (canopy), is further from the wall than the stand.

I retrieved my two foot level and first check the floor, putting one end of the level at the back of the stand. Sure enough, over that two foot span the floor drops about a quarter of an inch.

I now put the level on the vertical front face of the stand. The same thing. With the level bubble in the middle, the bottom of the level is about a quarter inch from the stand. The tank/stand is leaning into the room!

For a little background…..When the tank was installed in 2008, the two joists directly below the tank were sistered with a second beam.

Now I’m not sure what to do??? If I were to guess, I’d guess this deflection occurred immediately or shortly after the tank was filled. I believe I still have a couple jacks left over from when I had to jack the house. But that isn’t the fix. Going to have to scratch my head on this one.

Darn! It’s always something.

 

[downbeach]

Did the one sister-ed beam slip? If so, can you use the jacks to raise it back up, reattach, and add a double wide joist hanger?

 

[redfishbluefish]

I think I see what you’re talking about…or what you think you’re seeing. You think you see the newer joist slightly below the old one as it contacts the main beam. However, what you are seeing is a slight gap in the new joist to the cleat on the main beam. In addition, the sistered joists are nailed to the old joists every couple feet. So it couldn’t slip.

Also, I couldn’t use hangers if I wanted to. I know they are part of the building code today, but when the house was built (mid 40’s), they used a 2 x 3 cleat on the main beam to support the joists, and then toe-nailed into the main beam.

 

[redfishbluefish]

So here is what I’m thinking….let me know if you think I’m nuts:


Empty and remove the sump. Empty as much water out of the DT as I can and still keep the fish and rock in it….about ¾ of the water. All this water is saved. Now place a jack on the upper front beam of the stand, right in the middle….this is a 2x6. Jack up the front of the stand and insert an approximate ¼ inch strip across the whole front of the stand…between the bottom of the stand and the floor. Release jack and filler her up.

Will want to do all this as quick as possible since all the rock and coral will still be in the tank, and most exposed to air. I’m thinking if everything is staged, I could do the whole thing in less than an hour….for the DT anyway. And then take my time to get the sump back up and running.


As far as the strength of the joists holding this tank….I’m confident in what is there now. I think I just got deflection on the floor, and the beam sitting directly on the block wall didn’t deflect at all (it can’t). So that’s why I think it’s just a matter of re-leveling the tank.

 

[TanksNStuff]

Can you jack the top of the wall near the ceiling to make it "look" like the tank is straight?

Seriously though Paul, I would try jacking up the beam to see if it corrects it. If so, maybe consider adding a post under it to keep it from dropping again.

Also, did you put the level on the floor, next to the side of your tank... to see if its the floor and not just your tank/stand leaning?

 

[redfishbluefish]

Seriously though Paul, I would try jacking up the beam to see if it corrects it. If so, maybe consider adding a post under it to keep it from dropping again.

Also, did you put the level on the floor, next to the side of your tank... to see if its the floor and not just your tank/stand leaning?

George, it’s the floor! That first picture of a level is on the floor right next to the tank. From the wall, the floor drops off a quarter inch or so within two feet. It’s verified in checking the plumb of the tank. It’s leaning away from the wall.

I’m also not crazy about jacking the floor….I don’t think that’s a solution. First off I don’t want jacks in the middle of that room in the basement. It’s also a plaster house and it doesn’t take too kindly to being jacked. I know first hand from when I had to jack the house to replace a termite infested beam. Although I did the jacking a quarter turn a day, over a month or so, the house still ended up with broken/cracked plaster in the dining room, and cracked tile in the second floor bathroom.

So I think this beam deflection is “done,” and that’s why I think simply re-leveling the tank might be the way to go.

 

[TanksNStuff]

I first read this thread on my phone so the pics were small and I wasn't sure if that was next to the tank or not.

In that case, I would agree with your plan of action Paul.

 

[downbeach]

I think the wood cleat is a better construction method vs the hangers, you don't see that very often any more. I was going to suggest doing a cantilever beam so you wouldn't have anything sitting in the middle of the floor under the tank, but that would involve jacking up the floor a bit too.

 

[ecam]

Hey paul give me a call when your ready to do this.... I can at least wipe your brow and fetch some scotch for you as needed

I think I see what you’re talking about…or what you think you’re seeing. You think you see the newer joist slightly below the old one as it contacts the main beam. However, what you are seeing is a slight gap in the new joist to the cleat on the main beam. In addition, the sistered joists are nailed to the old joists every couple feet. So it couldn’t slip.

Also, I couldn’t use hangers if I wanted to. I know they are part of the building code today, but when the house was built (mid 40’s), they used a 2 x 3 cleat on the main beam to support the joists, and then toe-nailed into the main beam.

 

[Juano908]

Count me in if you need help Paul..

Sent from my LG-MS840 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Zippy69]

With the advent of the cold snap and decreased humidity....the wood is drier and contracts/shrinks, does this factor into the floor deflection. Maybe with shrunken wood of some part you do not have the intimate contact to disperse said weight. Thinking if it was hot and humid over time outside would this correct itself? If this is true and you correct it for the drier climate will you have another problem come spring/summer? Just a question as our house has some cracks to Sheetrock that come in the drier winter and go away in the humid summer.

 

[redfishbluefish]

Pete, you are correct that wood shrinks and swells with changes in humidity. Woodworks are aware of this in building cross-grain furniture. I just had to fix an antique cedar chest that wasn’t constructed correctly. The people before me would continue to add more nails to the cross grained pieces, thinking that that would hold it together. As the humidity changed, it would ripe itself apart once again.

Anyway, I digress……you raised a good point, but the argument doesn’t hold up because all boards (joists) were exposed to the same dry conditions, so all should have shrunk equally.


I think what I’m seeing is a dead weight deflection in the joists. Still plenty of strength to hold up the tank, just too much dead weight to hold it up to the level of the sold block wall that supports that very first joist. That one can’t deflect because of the rigid block below. But wood floors do flex under live load and deflect under dead load. You can see and hear this flex by going into your dining room with that china cabinet filled with glasses and plates. Now jump up and down and you’ll hear all that clanging. That’s what has happened to these beams, except it’s dead weight and doesn’t have the chance to spring back.

 

[TanksNStuff]

A valid point Pete. I guess that's possible.

I would still say to fix it now (in case that's not the issue) and then check it for level again when it starts getting warmer.

 

[Cdiggy]

I would check the floor in the rest of the room to see if the pitch is localized to the tank area or if it is the entire floor. If it is just around the tank and the floor pitches back to square in the rest of the room then it is a concern and should maybe think about slowly jacking the joists. I would also take an 8' level and check to see if those joists are bowing down at the tank (a nice true straight edge wouLd work in a pinch). If I am interpreting the pics correctly you are standing in the same place taking pics towards the same area on both floors. If that is the case then those two joists are supporting more than a thousand pounds of weight which could make those bow down and create the problem. But I could also be off base completely and totally wrong. But it does warrant further investigation

 

[redfishbluefish]

.....If I am interpreting the pics correctly you are standing in the same place taking pics towards the same area on both floors. If that is the case then those two joists are supporting more than a thousand pounds of weight which could make those bow down and create the problem. But I could also be off base completely and totally wrong. But it does warrant further investigation

Let me better explain the picture…..and I’m talking about this one:

I am in the basement looking down the length of the joists that are parallel to the tank immediately above. You can see two copper pipes going across the view that bend upward. Those are to feed a radiator in the fish room. The tank is located immediately to the left of that radiator….the furthest pipe.

Here is a picture of the tank where you can see the radiator and placement of the tank.

I like your suggestion about checking the rest of the room. I don’t have an eight foot level, but have an eight-plus foot straight edge I could use with my two foot level.

 

[TanksNStuff]

And now I see why you want to build a side cabinet. How did your wife let you keep it like that for so long?

 

[redfishbluefish]

And now I see why you want to build a side cabinet. How did your wife let you keep it like that for so long?

George, I am the Master of the house. I know this because my wife told me I could be (when see wasn’t home.) Actually the only time she goes into the fish room is to dump stuff that she believes belongs to me. She does the same with my shop. So for her,it’s just a dumping ground. In addition, go to the very first post of this thread and you’ll see my “To Do”list, where building the cabinet is numero uno on the list….albeit, now over three years old. I’ll eventually get to it….when my wife gives me a few minutes of free time.

 

[redfishbluefish]

OK, I’ve investigated further. From within the fish room the floor pitches to the tank. So the tank is deflecting the floor downward. I then did a foot-print drawing to see were the tank was sitting:

I then went down into the basement with an eight foot straight edge and put it up against the joists….perpendicular to the joists. I found that in the picture above, that “sister joist 2,” and the old one it’s sistered to, were the low point of the joists. Interestingly ‘sister joist 1” was in line with all the other joists. It was only that one pair that was “sagging.”

I really don’t want additional columns in the basement….it will make that room unusable. So I’m back to scratching my head…..first thought being two perpendicular beams (ideally lam beams) to the current joists, running the width of the room (about 8/12 to 9 feet). It will be obvious with the beams exposed, but still allow the room to be used. In the mean time I’ve found one jack that I’ll put up under “sister joist 2.”

 

[Jcurry@wesketch]

I would think that it's the main girder that the sistered joists are tying into is the structure that is deflecting. Sure you sistered the joists to take the extra load, but did you reinforce the main girder? That's eventually picking up the new load as it gets transferred through the joists. Run a string line at the bottom of the joists, sill to girder and another along the main girder. That will tell you which one(s) are deflecting.

On the bright side, wood structure rarely fails spontaneously. It just keeps sagging until the water spills out of the tank, thus relieving the extra load. LOL



PS: yes it's possible to empty the tank, jack up the front and install shims to level it out while it's fully stocked. (Don't ask me how I know. )

 

[redfishbluefish]

Jeff, thanks for the comments. Here is my thought process right now….and it’s been changing faster than the weather: That room in the basement still has open studded walls (or still waiting for studs)…and it’s a little over 8 feet wide. I’m thinking two small steel I-beams perpendicular to the joists, more or less running under the tank. I would use adjustable jack posts that would be “buried” in the stud walls. I’m going to talk to my steel man, but I’m thinking I could get away with relatively small I-beams…3 or 4 inches I hope.