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Sulfur Denitrator: Who's running one?
- Thread starter Phyl
- Start date
Phyl said:
Frankly Phyl most people on RC don't have a clue how to run one of these things correctly and that's being kind.
People get hung up on one part of the design and seem to forget the other parts or how they work together. I've tried "coil reactors" as stand alone and integrated pre-stages for nitrate reactors with only negative outcomes. I've tried 3/8, 3/4, 5/8 lengths at anywhere from 25 to 100 feet in length with different flows. Regardless of size, length and flow the "idea" is to deplete a large percent of the O2 entering the tube so that what comes out is in the negative redox range. It's very hard to nail it down and takes lots of constant tweeking to keep it running optimal (can be done).The two principles in nitrate reduction are low O2 content and lots of room for bacteria to grow. The coil develops enough bacteria to lower/eat the O2 but not enough to sustain itself without an additional carbon source. There is just not any room for the bacteria to populate and what happens is that you get bacteria growth/die off cycles that can drive you crazy tuning it. It's like a roller coaster.
The coil IMHO just gets in the way and throws extra obstacles in the way that you then have to control or work around and it's just not needed to begin with. The reaction chamber itself is fueled with a carbon source (sulfur) and the sulfur beads themselves provide a "home" for the bacteria to attach. I took this an "extra" step by using 1/2 Seachem's Matrix as the "home" for the bacteria while using the other half for "fuel/home" in the way of sulfur. I've found over the years that when adding more sulfur to the reactor it is less disturbed when 1/2 the media doesn't get bothered (matrix). TIP: I've never read or found any problem with "over loading" the reactor with tons of sulfur. You really can't have too much sulfur in the reactor.
A recirc model isn't totally needed but will make things work much smoother (same as with a calcium reactor). The idea is that you can have "high flow" internally in the reactor. This keeps air pockets from forming and makes sure the carbon fuel is distributed evenly throughout the reactor. Reactors not using recirc mechanisms tend to get "tunnels" and air pockets which throw them off over time as the air pockets cause the bacteria in that region to "starve" and die.
TIP:
Phyl/John this will apply to you.
If you happen to run a calcium reactor you can setup your nitrate reactor effluent to feed directly into the calcium reactor pretty easily. This will do a few things for you:
1) No need to run any calcium media in the reactor at all since the effluent will get "processed" by calcium media in the calcium reactor.
2) The nitrate reactor's effluent will be higher in CO2 then normal tank water AND the pH will be lower then normal tank water. This will make your CO2 tank (on the calcium reactor) last a lot longer since you don't need to push as much CO2 into the "mix". You will of course need to readjust the calcium reactor to make use of the higher CO2 and lower pH.
3) Since you won't need to disturb the reactor by opening it to add calcium media every couple of months it will require far less fiddling overall and will just work "better" long term.
I've tried numerous different ways to lower nitrates and have found many different ways to achieve this using different styles of reactors, coils, etc... I don't want to give the impression other methods won't work. All I'm trying to show is the simplest method that just plain works from all my personal experimenting and testing without going into "overkill" that is easy to maintain and adjust.
Carlo
Delbeek and Sprung's "The Reef Aquarium: Science, Art, and Technology, Vol. 3" has quite a lot of new info on the use of sulfur reactors and sulfur beads. I don't have the book handy, but he even recommends adding a layer of them to the substrate if I remember correctly.
Many roads to true enlightenment...
Many roads to true enlightenment...
Kabal2, you can use an ORP monitor and hand tune the water flow until you get an ORP reading of -170mv. If higher then -170 (IE -100mv) then reduce flow and if lower then -170 (IE -260mv) then add more flow.
If you use a controller then you have a few choices. You can use a solenoid, dosing pump or small pump highly throttled back. I've found running 2 "input" sources of flow going into the reactor to be the most stable. One is set a tad bit on the low side (IE -250mv) and is pretty constant. Roughly speaking this is going to be anywhere between 1 to 3 drips per second depending on the size of the reactor and amount of media. Then you have the 2nd flow controlled by the ORP controller. You set it up to allow flow when the reading is below -170mv and stop once it reaches your target number. Again the "flow" is measure in drips per second, but this time on "top" of the first flow.
Make sense?
Carlo
It's not really much different then running a Kalk reactor based on pH and a controller.
If you use a controller then you have a few choices. You can use a solenoid, dosing pump or small pump highly throttled back. I've found running 2 "input" sources of flow going into the reactor to be the most stable. One is set a tad bit on the low side (IE -250mv) and is pretty constant. Roughly speaking this is going to be anywhere between 1 to 3 drips per second depending on the size of the reactor and amount of media. Then you have the 2nd flow controlled by the ORP controller. You set it up to allow flow when the reading is below -170mv and stop once it reaches your target number. Again the "flow" is measure in drips per second, but this time on "top" of the first flow.
Make sense?
Carlo
It's not really much different then running a Kalk reactor based on pH and a controller.
do you guys think this guy will work for a 65g tank??
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc...Product_Code=RIO-29709&Category_Code=creactor
or i should go with the coralife calcium reactor?
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc...Product_Code=RIO-29709&Category_Code=creactor
or i should go with the coralife calcium reactor?
We picked up the coralife unit today. I like that it has the recirc & a place for the Orp probe. Not sure how much cheaper you can pick up a unit that has both. Not that the PH probe is necessary, but I think the recirc helps.
I'm hoping to get it running tonight. ;D
I'm hoping to get it running tonight. ;D
Carlo, Upon cutting a BNC cable apart... I've found, as I suspected, a cable that doesn't look like it can be crossed over. How do you cross the cable when the one wire comes through the center and the other wires wrap around the center core? It looks like a cable coaxial wire in there. Any help would be appreciated.
Phyl said:
Did you pick up sulfur media also? If so get a good flow running through it tonight to flush out any bubbles in the reactor. On day 2 totally stop the flow until you see the ORP reading (since you're using this) hitting -170 then start to open it up drop by drop to get it to stay at -170. A change of one drop may take an hour to register the change so take it slow.
Carlo
Phyl said:
Doesn't sound like fun. I've never done it that way as I don't like dealing with the braided wire. I've always purchased a male and female plug and then wired it up myself.
One way you could do it would be to solder the braided "shield" wire to a longer solid wire and then use this new solid wire. It doesn't need to be pretty, just functional.
Carlo
Generally speaking, you want to try and not disturb the reactor as much as possible once it's flushed of air bubbles.
Couple questions for you.
What do your nitrates test now?
Is the ORP probe new or an established probe? If you haven't been running it for 10 days or more I wouldn't even install it yet because the readings are going to be constantly changing until the probe settles in and the instrument is calibrated to the probe.
Has it been calibrated?
Carlo
Couple questions for you.
What do your nitrates test now?
Is the ORP probe new or an established probe? If you haven't been running it for 10 days or more I wouldn't even install it yet because the readings are going to be constantly changing until the probe settles in and the instrument is calibrated to the probe.
Has it been calibrated?
Carlo
Nitrates are around 10 with Salifert, testing higher (20?) with strips (which I'll use as a quick check to follow progress). The orp probe is established. Been in the system since last year when we were thinking of running ozone. It was calibrated at the time, but not since.
I shook it up real well last night and don't see any remaining bubbles now.
I shook it up real well last night and don't see any remaining bubbles now.
Just wired the cross over cable. Wasn't as hard as it looks. I unbraided the outside wire and cut out the core. Then just wired nutted them together. No big deal.
We have the Orp plugged in directly right now so that we can watch it fall. When it hits zero we'll put the crossover in place. It is hovering right around 310 right now. How long can we expect the fall to take?
Wasn't as hard as it looks. I unbraided the outside wire and cut out the core. Then just wired nutted them together. No big deal.We have the Orp plugged in directly right now so that we can watch it fall. When it hits zero we'll put the crossover in place. It is hovering right around 310 right now. How long can we expect the fall to take?
Can take from a day to a week but I'll help you "jump start". But First:
Your probe is probably pretty dirty so let's do a couple of things while your still way up in the positive ORP readings and it's not a big deal to mess with the reactor.
CLEAN PROBE
We want to do this because any algae on the probe will give us false high readings.
Turn off the reactor.
Take an old toothbrush and gently clean the end of the probe
Swish/Soak the ORP probe in vinegar for 10 minutes or so
Clean probe with toothbrush again.
Swish/Clean the ORP probe in RO/DI water to get rid of any vinegar that might be left
HOMEMADE ORP CALIBRATION SOLUTION
Mix up a solution of 1 part bleach (Clorox brand is fine that you probably have in the laundry room) to 5 parts RO/DI water for a total of 6 parts solution. Make sure you have enough total solution to fill half a cup.
Put your now clean ORP probe in this solution and let it stand until the ORP reading stabilizes.
You should get a reading of 700mv from this solution. For our purposes this is fine to use instead of dealing with pH calibration solutions mixed with quinhydrine.
CALIBRATE YOUR MONITOR/CONTROLLER
You should be able to use this reading to calibrate your monitor/controller to the 700mv solution above.
If you happen to be using this on a Neptune 3 you can use a backdoor and do this:
1) With the controller in the run display place the probe in the 700mV reference solution. Wait several minutes for the probe to stabilize. Note the value. Let y = 700 - orp_reading.
2) Go to the second screen of the selftest display. Press the up button twice, the down button twice, and then the select button. You should now be in the undocumented manual calibration menu.
3) Go to the ORP manual cal. Adjust the offset up or down by 'y'.
4) Exit the manual cal menu.
5) Go to the run display. With the ORP probe still in the 700 mV calibration solution, the ORP should read 700.
Carlo
Your probe is probably pretty dirty so let's do a couple of things while your still way up in the positive ORP readings and it's not a big deal to mess with the reactor.
CLEAN PROBE
We want to do this because any algae on the probe will give us false high readings.
Turn off the reactor.
Take an old toothbrush and gently clean the end of the probe
Swish/Soak the ORP probe in vinegar for 10 minutes or so
Clean probe with toothbrush again.
Swish/Clean the ORP probe in RO/DI water to get rid of any vinegar that might be left
HOMEMADE ORP CALIBRATION SOLUTION
Mix up a solution of 1 part bleach (Clorox brand is fine that you probably have in the laundry room) to 5 parts RO/DI water for a total of 6 parts solution. Make sure you have enough total solution to fill half a cup.
Put your now clean ORP probe in this solution and let it stand until the ORP reading stabilizes.
You should get a reading of 700mv from this solution. For our purposes this is fine to use instead of dealing with pH calibration solutions mixed with quinhydrine.
CALIBRATE YOUR MONITOR/CONTROLLER
You should be able to use this reading to calibrate your monitor/controller to the 700mv solution above.
If you happen to be using this on a Neptune 3 you can use a backdoor and do this:
1) With the controller in the run display place the probe in the 700mV reference solution. Wait several minutes for the probe to stabilize. Note the value. Let y = 700 - orp_reading.
2) Go to the second screen of the selftest display. Press the up button twice, the down button twice, and then the select button. You should now be in the undocumented manual calibration menu.
3) Go to the ORP manual cal. Adjust the offset up or down by 'y'.
4) Exit the manual cal menu.
5) Go to the run display. With the ORP probe still in the 700 mV calibration solution, the ORP should read 700.
Carlo
Once done with the probe cleaning and calibration put the probe back in the reactor.
KICK START LOWER ORP VALUES
Now to get the ORP value moving down into the negative as quick as possible:
1) Add a shotglass full of unflavored vodka to the reactor (you can poor it down the ORP probe hole if you want). If you don't have cheap unflavored vodka around then take a little RO/DI water and heat it up in the microwave to get it nice a warm. Mix a teaspoon of normal white granulated sugar in the warm RO/DI water and then pour this into the reactor. We kick starting the reactor with a carbon source.
2) Put ORP probe back in reactor if not done already
3) Start reactor pump back up but shut off supply line of tank water so NO new water is being added to the reactor.
4) You'll probably be able to watch the ORP reading drop and will be down in the negative values within the day.
Once you start to get below -100mV start the "drip". Since we added an outside carbon source to kick it off you'll probably be able to add quite a lot of flow while the reactor still drops but keep an eye on it since once the outside carbon source if "flushed" from the reactor you'll notice the ORP starting to rise and you'll need to adjust your flow.
Basically at this point you'll be able to target -170mV with little adjustments here or there. As long as you are in the -50mV to -300mV you will be reducing nitrates but it's best to try and stay in the -100mV to -250mV range with -170mV being pretty optimal.
WATCH CALCIUM, ALKALINITY, PH & PHOSPHATES
Once your reactor is running optimal you will want to keep an eye on calcium, alkalinity & pH. Because you are running a nitrate reactor you are going to burn more alkalinity then normal. The "traditional" 20:1 balanced calcium/alk rule does not apply to you anymore! The reactor is going to help with calcium slightly (nothing to write home about) BUT will USE up ALK. So this "skews" your chemistry.
You also will need to watch phosphates a little closer then normal for a while. The nitrate reactor doesn't mess with the phosphate chemistry at all but once the reactor is running well you will limit your nitrates. This can cause macro algae a slow death or cause them to go "dormant". When this happens the "normal" phosphate removers you are used to having working for you STOP. The downside is that CYNO can & WILL take over for macro algae because they don't need nitrates as a fuel source. They can get nitrogen from the air alone. Cyno is quite efficient!
If you notice a Cyno problem I can help you with this easily and is way cheaper then any typically "media" you buy. We'll cross this bridge if it becomes a problem.
None of this is a big deal at all BUT you need to watch for the change and dose or adjust calcium reactors, 2 part solutions & kalk drips accordingly.
Carlo
KICK START LOWER ORP VALUES
Now to get the ORP value moving down into the negative as quick as possible:
1) Add a shotglass full of unflavored vodka to the reactor (you can poor it down the ORP probe hole if you want). If you don't have cheap unflavored vodka around then take a little RO/DI water and heat it up in the microwave to get it nice a warm. Mix a teaspoon of normal white granulated sugar in the warm RO/DI water and then pour this into the reactor. We kick starting the reactor with a carbon source.
2) Put ORP probe back in reactor if not done already
3) Start reactor pump back up but shut off supply line of tank water so NO new water is being added to the reactor.
4) You'll probably be able to watch the ORP reading drop and will be down in the negative values within the day.
Once you start to get below -100mV start the "drip". Since we added an outside carbon source to kick it off you'll probably be able to add quite a lot of flow while the reactor still drops but keep an eye on it since once the outside carbon source if "flushed" from the reactor you'll notice the ORP starting to rise and you'll need to adjust your flow.
Basically at this point you'll be able to target -170mV with little adjustments here or there. As long as you are in the -50mV to -300mV you will be reducing nitrates but it's best to try and stay in the -100mV to -250mV range with -170mV being pretty optimal.
WATCH CALCIUM, ALKALINITY, PH & PHOSPHATES
Once your reactor is running optimal you will want to keep an eye on calcium, alkalinity & pH. Because you are running a nitrate reactor you are going to burn more alkalinity then normal. The "traditional" 20:1 balanced calcium/alk rule does not apply to you anymore! The reactor is going to help with calcium slightly (nothing to write home about) BUT will USE up ALK. So this "skews" your chemistry.
You also will need to watch phosphates a little closer then normal for a while. The nitrate reactor doesn't mess with the phosphate chemistry at all but once the reactor is running well you will limit your nitrates. This can cause macro algae a slow death or cause them to go "dormant". When this happens the "normal" phosphate removers you are used to having working for you STOP. The downside is that CYNO can & WILL take over for macro algae because they don't need nitrates as a fuel source. They can get nitrogen from the air alone. Cyno is quite efficient!
If you notice a Cyno problem I can help you with this easily and is way cheaper then any typically "media" you buy. We'll cross this bridge if it becomes a problem.
None of this is a big deal at all BUT you need to watch for the change and dose or adjust calcium reactors, 2 part solutions & kalk drips accordingly.
Carlo
Sadly, my knowledge of a BNC cable is worse than I suspected. Apparently crossing the shield and the center wire doesn't do you any good. That cable yeilded me 000 as a result, even when the number should have been crawling negative. So I'm back to monitoring effluent for nitrates.
The orp dropped to zero without any extra feeding, so I'm just letting it go. It climbed back up while I figured out how to slow my effluent to a drip, but is on its way back down to zero.
Right now I've got trites (none in the main) & trates (slightly higher than the main).
The orp dropped to zero without any extra feeding, so I'm just letting it go. It climbed back up while I figured out how to slow my effluent to a drip, but is on its way back down to zero.
Right now I've got trites (none in the main) & trates (slightly higher than the main).
Phyl, I bet you made the BNC crossover cable just fine. I remember hitting the same problem when I made the switch from Pinpoint ORP to Neptune. The Neptune would only go to 000 running either normal probe or probe with crossover while the Pinpoint functioned correctly with the crossover.
I've got to think about this one to remember the trick to getting it to read correctly. Curt (from Neptune) told me it couldn't be done because they implemented the ORP a little differently then most true ORP monitors because theirs can also function as a 2nd pH port. I'm not one to take "can't be done" when I "think it can".
Go for the Nitrate testing for now while I "remember" the trick to getting it to work. I'll look later tonight after I get cleaned up from my daughters pool party today.
BTW, after cleaning the probe and using my homemade calibration solution what ORP reading did you get originally?
Carlo
I've got to think about this one to remember the trick to getting it to read correctly. Curt (from Neptune) told me it couldn't be done because they implemented the ORP a little differently then most true ORP monitors because theirs can also function as a 2nd pH port. I'm not one to take "can't be done" when I "think it can".
Go for the Nitrate testing for now while I "remember" the trick to getting it to work. I'll look later tonight after I get cleaned up from my daughters pool party today.
BTW, after cleaning the probe and using my homemade calibration solution what ORP reading did you get originally?
Carlo